Walmart Pleads Guilty After a Decade of Bribes • Hacker News Board

Re: Walmart Pleads Guilty After a Decade of Bribes

#71

Post by 9nGQluzmnq3M » Fri, Jun 21, 2019, 2:21 AM UTC

pmiller2 wrote: post #66

rayiner wrote: post #61

I suspect people cynically demanding that CEOs be put in jail haven’t really dug into the facts of this or other FCPA cases. Holding the CEO liable for employee misdeeds is like holding teachers responsible for teenagers getting into fights or having sex. It’s a strong moral position to take (holding teachers accountable), but it’s wholly impractical and unfair. In a company with a million employees, it’s guaranteed…

How do you hold an immortal, amoral entity that can’t be thrown in jail accountable, then? Trivial fines amounting to 0.1% of EBITDA are not the answer.

Like we do now: you hit it in the pocketbook with massive fines.

Also, the CEO may not go to jail, but the local people actually doing the bribery should.

Re: Walmart Pleads Guilty After a Decade of Bribes

#72

Post by mruts » Fri, Jun 21, 2019, 2:22 AM UTC

I live in Africa and pay bribes on a weekly and sometimes daily basis. It’s hard to do anything at all without bribes here, and I am certainly sympathetic of it.

People who don’t have experience with 3rd world countriss often think it’s a big deal bribing someone. But it’s not, it’s a simple fact of life. I don’t really see anything wrong with a company doing it either.

In fact, I kind of like paying bribes. Unlike in the US, I don’t really have to worry about doing anything illegal. I can have weed in the car, I can have out of date permits, I can really just do anything I please. I have money, so it’s all good.

Of course, it’s worse if you’re poor. But then again, in America being stopped by the police when you’re poor is probably worse.

Re: Walmart Pleads Guilty After a Decade of Bribes

#73

Post by khazhou » Fri, Jun 21, 2019, 2:26 AM UTC

patentatt wrote: post #28

khazhou wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Corporations aren't people. You're misrepresenting Citizens United

The gp comment doesn’t seem to mention citizens united ... why bring it up in response to a comment about corporate personhood? It is almost completely non sequitur

Almost every modern reference to "Corporations are now people!" is a callback to Citizens United. If the commenter I replied to is not aware of and was not referring to that, I apologize. But... he probably was. A simple search for "corporation are people" or "corporate personhood" will bring up articles that immediately and extensively focus on Citizens United.

Re: Walmart Pleads Guilty After a Decade of Bribes

#74

Post by mayneack » Fri, Jun 21, 2019, 2:26 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #61

I suspect people cynically demanding that CEOs be put in jail haven’t really dug into the facts of this or other FCPA cases. Holding the CEO liable for employee misdeeds is like holding teachers responsible for teenagers getting into fights or having sex. It’s a strong moral position to take (holding teachers accountable), but it’s wholly impractical and unfair. In a company with a million employees, it’s guaranteed…

> Holding the CEO liable for employee misdeeds is like holding teachers responsible for teenagers getting into fights or having sex.

This analogy doesn't hold for a lot of reasons, but the most obvious is that teachers don't get to choose their students. CEOs can (and should) fire employees that don't live up to their ethical responsibilities.

Re: Walmart Pleads Guilty After a Decade of Bribes

#75

Post by Despegar » Fri, Jun 21, 2019, 2:26 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #61

I suspect people cynically demanding that CEOs be put in jail haven’t really dug into the facts of this or other FCPA cases. Holding the CEO liable for employee misdeeds is like holding teachers responsible for teenagers getting into fights or having sex. It’s a strong moral position to take (holding teachers accountable), but it’s wholly impractical and unfair. In a company with a million employees, it’s guaranteed…

So are you just against FCPA cases in general then? I think it's one of the most important laws in the US and its extraterritoriality reduces corruption everywhere in the world.

Re: Walmart Pleads Guilty After a Decade of Bribes

#76

Post by shkkmo » Fri, Jun 21, 2019, 2:27 AM UTC

jedberg wrote: post #51

Question: What does the United States gain by disallowing US companies to bribe government officials outside the United States? From a purely logistical standpoint, it seems like it would make more sense for those other countries to police these activities, or for the US to give the information they have to those governments to fine the companies as they see fit in their own countries. Why does the US fine US compani…

The US was the first country to make this illegal in 1977, eventually other countries did as well and the OECD Anti-Bribery Convention was eventually established.

The original 1977 law arose in response to investigations in the wake of the Watergate scandal and public outcry over corruption.

Beyond the public perceptions of corruption, there were significant foreign policy impacts. The US gov was actively working against communists in many countries, but those communists were sometimes being funded by bribes from US companies.

When the law was passed, the goal was to push other countries into implementing and enforcing similar laws to reduce any negative impact on US companies.

Re: Walmart Pleads Guilty After a Decade of Bribes

#77

Post by jgalt212 » Fri, Jun 21, 2019, 2:27 AM UTC

Someone please pass a law making it impossible to charge corporations with crimes. People commit crimes not limited liability ownership structures.

Re: Walmart Pleads Guilty After a Decade of Bribes

#78

Post by linkregister » Fri, Jun 21, 2019, 2:28 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #61

I suspect people cynically demanding that CEOs be put in jail haven’t really dug into the facts of this or other FCPA cases. Holding the CEO liable for employee misdeeds is like holding teachers responsible for teenagers getting into fights or having sex. It’s a strong moral position to take (holding teachers accountable), but it’s wholly impractical and unfair. In a company with a million employees, it’s guaranteed…

This is a conventional view of culpability of corporate officers. It is, however, not the least bit aspirational or innovative. People demanding that CEOs be put in prison are for the most part misunderstanding the legal system, but they are also looking clear-eyed at a system that rewards extra-judicial risk-taking by corporate officers. The fines that come with negligence are typically undersized compared to the deterrent effect that the public expects. (The public also remains unaware at the enormous auditing burden that comes with fines from government agencies).

The solution for corporations and officers to avoid legal consequences is to have standard compliance programs in effect. Failing to account for the inevitable misdeeds of agents is similar to the teacher who leaves his classroom for hours and is surprised to see his students engaged in misconduct.

Re: Walmart Pleads Guilty After a Decade of Bribes

#79

Post by toomuchequate » Fri, Jun 21, 2019, 2:29 AM UTC

pmiller2 wrote: post #66

rayiner wrote: post #61

I suspect people cynically demanding that CEOs be put in jail haven’t really dug into the facts of this or other FCPA cases. Holding the CEO liable for employee misdeeds is like holding teachers responsible for teenagers getting into fights or having sex. It’s a strong moral position to take (holding teachers accountable), but it’s wholly impractical and unfair. In a company with a million employees, it’s guaranteed…

How do you hold an immortal, amoral entity that can’t be thrown in jail accountable, then? Trivial fines amounting to 0.1% of EBITDA are not the answer.

Hold them/the company responsible.

They should have internal policing. When there are billions at stake, I don't understand why these kind of things aren't torn open by lawyers.

Re: Walmart Pleads Guilty After a Decade of Bribes

#80

Post by shkkmo » Fri, Jun 21, 2019, 2:29 AM UTC

mullingitover wrote: post #32

ummonk wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In theory it could unfairly handicap American companies relative to foreign companies. This doesn’t seem to have happened much in practice though so I support the FCPA. Corruption is a big scourge in many countries and it is a really good thing American money is prohibited from exacerbating the issue.

> In theory it could unfairly handicap American companies relative to foreign companies. Seems like it would be sensible for the US to push the rest of the world to adopt the same law. We're able to push other countries to adopt our war on drugs laws, why not war on corruption?

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OECD_Anti-Bribery_Convention