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U.S. Escalates Online Attacks on Russia’s Power Grid

nytimes.com

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Re: U.S. Escalates Online Attacks on Russia’s Power Grid

#171
post #41

Holy crap. This is huge news. Isn’t a cyber attack on critical infrastructure kind of an act of war? I’m not sure how wise this course of action is.

I recall reading, some years ago, that the US reserves the right to respond to cyberattacks with nuclear weapons. I wonder if Russia also does. Playing games with power grids etc is arguably much higher stakes than fighters messing with each other, or even with passenger planes. Or navy ships passing too closely. Edit: I guess that it was more like a heads up for adversaries. As in "don't think that we won't". Just i…

I don't think it can be related. For one, the US was referring to a cyber sabotage operation, not an attack in the sense of "an attack against a computer system". "Attack" has two very different meanings in this context. SSHing into a server is an attack and shutting down power for a city leading to 20 hospital deaths is an attack.

The original statement I could find [0]:

>recommending, in response to the "most extreme case" (described as a "catastrophic full spectrum cyber attack"), that "Nuclear weapons would remain the ultimate response and anchor the deterrence ladder."

I think this is referring to an unprecedented attack which intentionally kills many citizens. It's hard to imagine a scenario where nuclear weapons would be the warranted response, even if the cyber attack killed people, but I don't think the statement should be taken literally.

Either way, this is not that. These are the same espionage and sabotage games every big nation plays. Russia has been and probably is in many of our energy SCADA systems. China, too. And we're in theirs. That's just how things go in the 21st century. It will undoubtedly escalate; the real question is who will pull the trigger. (The US did at least once against the IRA, though that was in direct retaliation to disinformation campaigns aimed at destabilizing the US.)

Re: U.S. Escalates Online Attacks on Russia’s Power Grid

#172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a tit-for-tat response... until some treaty is signed which forbids it and then there is follow through from Russia. US plays hard ball if the other side is not playing fairly. You can hardly blame them.

The US plays "fairly" in international relations? Honestly amazed if anyone truly stands by that statement. The irony of mentioning treaties too. That's some next level true believer stuff. Would love to have a chat about: * Chemical weapons convention * Mine ban treaty * Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court * Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty * Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty * Biological and Toxin Weapons Con…

Add the INF treaty to this list.

[1] https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-02-02/us-to-suspend-cold-wa...

Re: U.S. Escalates Online Attacks on Russia’s Power Grid

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US plays "fairly" in international relations? Honestly amazed if anyone truly stands by that statement. The irony of mentioning treaties too. That's some next level true believer stuff. Would love to have a chat about: * Chemical weapons convention * Mine ban treaty * Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court * Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty * Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty * Biological and Toxin Weapons Con…

I am a critic of the US but in this case it's not as if Russian hackers don't keep screwing with the US power grid.

> Russian hackers

This claim is repeated endlessly but I've yet to see any actual evidence of it. But that is par for the course in this era of disinformation.

Re: U.S. Escalates Online Attacks on Russia’s Power Grid

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The death sentence is the same thing, just with more decoration.

You mean criminals tried, found guilty, lost all appeals, and sentenced to death? This is not the same thing as countries killing their own innocent citizens.

Yes. Many have been wrongly sentenced in spite of all those decorations.

Re: U.S. Escalates Online Attacks on Russia’s Power Grid

#175
What happens to quality assurance when malware starts modifying systems? When malware starts modifying systems that have already been modified by other malware? Seems like a mutual game of Russian Roulette. Any attack that is not perfectly executed risks harming the system, even if the malware is never activated. This happens all the time with software upgrades that have been vetted. Are the spies doing regression analysis on the effects of their implants to make sure they don't accidentally break something?

Re: U.S. Escalates Online Attacks on Russia’s Power Grid

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean criminals tried, found guilty, lost all appeals, and sentenced to death? This is not the same thing as countries killing their own innocent citizens.

Yes. Many have been wrongly sentenced in spite of all those decorations.

There's a massive difference between wrongly-fully sentenced inmates and countries that kill innocents through authoritarian means. It's disingenuous to pretend otherwise.

Re: U.S. Escalates Online Attacks on Russia’s Power Grid

#177
post #7

Holy crap. This is huge news. Isn’t a cyber attack on critical infrastructure kind of an act of war? I’m not sure how wise this course of action is.

It's part of a larger game these nations are playing. There will not be a war between Russia and the US. Not with China who is ultimately the enemy of both Russia and the US. These incidents are meant to keep each other awake.

China and Russia just "agreed to upgrade their relationship to a comprehensive strategic partnership":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWBEVwIdTxE

Re: U.S. Escalates Online Attacks on Russia’s Power Grid

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Many have been wrongly sentenced in spite of all those decorations.

There's a massive difference between wrongly-fully sentenced inmates and countries that kill innocents through authoritarian means. It's disingenuous to pretend otherwise.

There are similarities too.

Re: U.S. Escalates Online Attacks on Russia’s Power Grid

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a massive difference between wrongly-fully sentenced inmates and countries that kill innocents through authoritarian means. It's disingenuous to pretend otherwise.

There are similarities too.

Which are overshadowed by the differences. North Korea and the United States are not the same, but you already know this.

Re: U.S. Escalates Online Attacks on Russia’s Power Grid

#180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are similarities too.

Which are overshadowed by the differences. North Korea and the United States are not the same, but you already know this.

They are not overshadowed because life is not a commodity bartered according to rules of law. Once you take a life there is no restitution. Life is not a transaction: it is destiny, and it is above the law.

Rules and reasons for why killing is okay are therefore all equally wrong.

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