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Americans can opt out of airport facial recognition

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Re: Americans can opt out of airport facial recognition

#171

Post by gumby »

jandrese wrote: post #113
gumby wrote: post #71

By the way the whole idea of passports is barely a century old and was a temporary measure for WWI. Beware scope creep.

Didn't it just replace a patchwork mess of systems used by countries beforehand?

Prior to WWI, European border controls had pretty much dissolved (Prisoner of Zenda notwithstanding). The history section of the Wikipedia page on passports is pretty good though mostly Europe-oriented.

I was actually specifically taking about US passports (sorry I wasn’t explicit) which were introduced during and until the end of the Wilson administration and then were revived in WWII (for travel to Europe before the US entered the war). Again, the history part of the US passport Wikipedia page is not a bad overview.

Re: Americans can opt out of airport facial recognition

#172

Post by [deleted] »

cblades wrote: post #114
chrisseaton wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the UK almost everyone gets a passport as a baby and never lets it lapse for the rest of their lives. Seems like a basic bit of freedom to have. I assumed Americans would want the same kind of basic freedom to move between countries? You'd get a really funny look if you were suddenly asked to go on a business trip to the US and you said you didn't have a passport yet. Not sure why it wouldn't be the same if you we…

Ah, from your other comments I thought you were an American for some reason. That makes sense. I think the difference is the size of the US. I've traveled a fair bit for work, but never been asked to leave the country. Jobs that do require international travel often explicitly say so in the description and say you must have a passport. As far as freedom to travel, unless you happen to be on the northern or southern b…

[deleted]

Re: Americans can opt out of airport facial recognition

#173

Post by [deleted] »

Jach wrote: post #157
JohnFen wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The passport is to prove US citizenship. That's an incredibly flawed thing to ask for with domestic flights, though. Most US citizens don't have a passport at all.

A birth certificate or social security card would probably suffice, too.

[deleted]

Re: Americans can opt out of airport facial recognition

#174

Post by chrisseaton »

JohnFen wrote: post #152
chrisseaton wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the UK almost everyone gets a passport as a baby and never lets it lapse for the rest of their lives. Seems like a basic bit of freedom to have. I assumed Americans would want the same kind of basic freedom to move between countries? You'd get a really funny look if you were suddenly asked to go on a business trip to the US and you said you didn't have a passport yet. Not sure why it wouldn't be the same if you we…

> I assumed Americans would want the same kind of basic freedom to move between countries? If you're in the US, going to a different country is a major undertaking unless you happen to live near the Canadian or Mexican border, regardless of whether you have a passport or not. Casual international travel is just not a thing for most people.

> If you're in the US, going to a different country is a major undertaking unless you happen to live near the Canadian or Mexican border

How come it’s seen as pretty normal to go for example from the UK to New York for a weekend, even a middle class couple might do a Christmas shopping weekend like that once a year, but the opposite, the same distance and cost, is seen as a major undertaking?

Re: Americans can opt out of airport facial recognition

#175

Post by jdeibele »

alasdair_ wrote: post #146
jandrese wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US Passports are not especially cheap and expire after 10 years, so if you have no international travel plans it doesn't make sense to get one. I recently got some for my kids for an upcoming trip and it required me to take time off of work to visit the Post Office during a narrow window when the passport clerk is there, whom we had to pay for her services, to then mail off each passport application individually alon…

And the renewal process for young children requires all the same stuff AGAIN. Two parents, original birth certificates etc. No idea why they can't just use the old passport information with an updated photo. They expire every five years too, so that's three difficult trips involved and a fair bit of expense.

Yeah, but there have been horror stories about one parent who takes the children back to their home country. Typically it's been the dad back to Saudia Arabia but maybe that's just the stories that made the news.

The reason (I assume) for the 5-year expiration is that kids look a lot different in 5 years.

Here in Portland you can go to several post offices but the easier way is to go to the county headquarters. Very short wait time, photographer on premises (I keep wanting to just stand the kids against a wall but wife vetoes that), etc.

Last year I had business on Spring Break and my wife took our kids to British Columbia. I was a little surprised that they made it across the border without a hitch. No notarized letter, etc. We did have to have both parents notarize something for my son to cross the border for Boy Scouts.

Re: Americans can opt out of airport facial recognition

#176

Post by JohnFen »

chrisseaton wrote: post #174
JohnFen wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I assumed Americans would want the same kind of basic freedom to move between countries? If you're in the US, going to a different country is a major undertaking unless you happen to live near the Canadian or Mexican border, regardless of whether you have a passport or not. Casual international travel is just not a thing for most people.

> If you're in the US, going to a different country is a major undertaking unless you happen to live near the Canadian or Mexican border How come it’s seen as pretty normal to go for example from the UK to New York for a weekend, even a middle class couple might do a Christmas shopping weekend like that once a year, but the opposite, the same distance and cost, is seen as a major undertaking?

There's a number of factors related to that, I think. I'm engaging in informed speculation here, based on my experiences with my fellow citizens.

I think the short answer is that the US is physically huge. Just the state I live in alone is about the same land area as Germany, and there are 49 others -- many of which are larger than mine.

Just getting to an airport that you can take an international flight to the UK from can be a big deal all by itself. It's not cheap (an oddity about plane fares in the US is that domestic travel can cost as much or more than flying across the Atlantic), and can take a day or two. The cost of the flight from, say, New York to London is not necessarily the major portion of the travel expense.

The travel time is significant, as I mentioned. For a lot of people (pretty much anyone who doesn't live in the general north-eastern portion of the US), a "weekend trip" would require 4-6 days. Vacation time is limited, so not everyone is willing to spend a significant portion of it on an airplane or in airports.

Cost is a big deal -- traveling overseas is expensive, and the prices for things in the UK are quite high as well (probably on par with New York, but New York is very expensive). Most people who aren't wealthy (which is the vast majority of people) could really only expect to afford it once or twice in a lifetime, unless they are willing to sacrifice a lot of other things to make it happen more frequently -- and some people do, but most people have other priorities for the money.

(I wonder why your comments keep getting downvoted? That's weird.)

Re: Americans can opt out of airport facial recognition

#177

Post by afpx »

ceejayoz wrote: post #130
afpx wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of those meet the “Major” criteria.

58 dead and 851 injuries isn't major?

It’s a lot. But, in comparison to how many people die in a year? No, not really.

Plus, the original topic is about foreign threats, not domestic.

Re: Americans can opt out of airport facial recognition

#178

Post by Symbiote »

DuskStar wrote: post #14
nimbius wrote: post #11

also worth noting: as a US citizen re-entering the country you do not have to present anything more to a customs agent than your passport. You are not required to answer any questions at all. Where youre from, where you were, what you did, nothing, however it may result in an inspection of your bags, so it depends on whether your interpretation of liberty is based on personal convenience. Disclosure: ive done this op…

The last few times I've returned to the states I haven't even had to talk to a customs agent - but signing up for Global Entry might be too much of a violation of privacy by some standards.

I think every time I enter the European Union as a citizen (crossing the border in Denmark, Germany, the UK, France, the Netherlands or Spain) I've either not interacted with anyone (electronic border gate), or said nothing more than "hello" and "thank you".

Speaking to a customs official is very rare, I've only had that happen once.

Do most Americans get questioned at their own border? I do, but I'd assumed that was only for "aliens".

Re: Americans can opt out of airport facial recognition

#179

Post by novok »

alasdair_ wrote: post #145
gumby wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never make a big deal of it, just say casually, "sorry, I don't have any ID with me". If they really want something I hand over a credit card or business card. In general nobody really has a need for ID and would rather not lose your business. You show up with an Amex platinum card and a haircut no hotel is going to deny you a room just because you don't have ID. When you fly without ID (note: this is different fro…

> some federal courthouses for some reason That's interesting. I wonder what happens if you're a defendant and they won't let you in the building?

Well your probably compelled to be there, so all the consequences of being a no show is what would effectively happen, or a police escort of some sort if your the kind of person with no id.

Re: Americans can opt out of airport facial recognition

#180

Post by Symbiote »

vinay427 wrote: post #167
alasdair_ wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>People generally just don't carry around passports for domestic travel in their own countries I certainly did in the UK, as well as to prove my age in a bar etc. Lots and lots of people "in their own countries" don't have a driver's license because public transport is enough.

This has nothing to do with public transport. People here in Switzerland often carry ID cards or residence cards, and this seems common in many European countries similar to drivers licenses in the US and Canada. You also don't need to know how to drive to get a valid state ID in most states, as far as I know.

Britain and Denmark are the only EU countries that don't issue identity cards.

Britain has a proof of age card, but 10 years ago it wasn't recognized very well: http://www.pass-scheme.org.uk/

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