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Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

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Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#171

Post by kittiepryde »

coldtea wrote: post #148
Tomte wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's certainly not the first remedy that the court has taken. But say, if he hadn't been sent to prison, would he have paid child support then? We all don't know, but I strongly suspect no, and I strongly suspect the court has more than just my suspicions and calibrated its reaction accordingly.

> But say, if he hadn't been sent to prison, would he have paid child support then? The amount could have been ordered to be taken from his bank account, or confiscated from his salary directly from his employer or payment system, or taken from his property. There's absolutely nothing that necessitates that he is sent to prison if he merely can't pay. Only if he has money and doesn't pay (and that after accounting fo…

I think it would be an interesting choice, that if you're sent to jail for lack of payment towards child support ( or any other debt ), the government pays your debt up to the point you get out.

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#172

Post by wonderwonder »

Waterluvian wrote: post #96
massivecali wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I've been reminded countless times, "driving is a privilege not a right". You can lose your license for all kinds of 'unfair' reasons that do not make sense, and I agree it's heavy handed to include student loan debt, but until it is Federally acknowledged that all citizens have a right to drive (after passing proper license tests), then this downward progression will continue. In California you can't even registe…

It's a privilege sure. Except the US is really good at building dysfunctional cities that require a car to live.

I had a friend that could not afford a car. So a 2 hour round trip drive to work everyday became a 5 hour round trip bus ride. Every. Day.

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#173

Post by AcerbicZero »

coldtea wrote: post #146
massivecali wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I've been reminded countless times, "driving is a privilege not a right". You can lose your license for all kinds of 'unfair' reasons that do not make sense, and I agree it's heavy handed to include student loan debt, but until it is Federally acknowledged that all citizens have a right to drive (after passing proper license tests), then this downward progression will continue. In California you can't even registe…

> As I've been reminded countless times, "driving is a privilege not a right". That's just a BS saying, not some rule of nature. Societies should define what is a privilege and what is a right. Do you think if there was a referendum on this specific matter (and not tied to 200 other policy questions, like general elections are), people would vote that "yeah, indeed driving is a privilege"?

>Societies should define what is a privilege and what is a right.

That's a hard no. I see where you're going with this, and we likely agree on 90% of this topic anyway, but the issue with society defining rights is that you end up letting the mob decide the "right" of green eyed people to live has just become a privilege.

Rights stem from nature, and exist with, or without society. If a society wants to add to the list, they're more than welcome to do so. Those are usually called privileges and its up to the society to attach proper protections to them.

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#174

Post by coldtea »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #165
coldtea wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"8 % of the EU workforce commutes to work in a different region" (NUTS 2 defined region: different province, city, etc).

And this has what, exactly, to do with my comment?

Wasn't your comment all about how driving is not that needed in Europe?

Try getting to a different province/city etc, easily 30-100km away or more on "public transit".

Even where the connections are there (and not like a couple of buses each day), it's neither fast nor pleasant enough to make driving "unneeded".

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#175

Post by coldtea »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #168
coldtea wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, what if you do one of jobs that require you to drive? Bus drivers, taxi drivers, truckers, delivery people, etc, are not lesser citizens... Plus, who said people in the developed countries don't commute, or that even if they have public transport, having to and waste extra hour or hours in many cases (to wait at stops and to change buses or subway lines, etc), is small matter in the extra effort, free time, and…

> Well, what if you do one of jobs that require you to drive? Don't do the thing that gets your license revoked? And if it happens, get a different job? > Plus, who said people in the developed countries don't commute, or that even if they have public transport, having to and waste extra hour or hours in many cases (to wait at stops and to change buses or subway lines, etc), is small matter in the extra effort, free…

>Don't do the thing that gets your license revoked? And if it happens, get a different job?

There are some comments that make me think "I want to see all these things happen to that person, to see how casually they'll dismiss the problem then, and if they'll ever figure out what empathy means".

Really makes you wish those people losing their car and their job, because they fell behind on some student debt payment, and being unable to rise out of it. Add perhaps a few problems real people in those situations (which for them are dismissed as mere "personal failings) have, like spouses or parents or kids to take care of, some personal sickness, and so on. Maybe experiencing real life will help do with the smugness?

>Well, if it's just convenience, then that seems to fit the definition of privilege, no?

Being able to laugh away the pain of people in such situations (because you never were close to that, or have safety nets all around) fits the definition of privilege better.

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#176

Post by godelski »

coldtea wrote: post #160
mruts wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

5% of Americans take public transit to get to work. I wouldn't call that an almost certainty that you need a car. An almost certainty would be maybe under <.001%

People familiar with Eartly customs of casual conversation do call 95% "almost certainty".

For example: There's a 95% chance I forgot about my tea and it ended up cold. We now ask "Do you expect my tea to be cold?" and can ask "On a scale of not certain to very certain, how certain are you?" I'm very certain my tea is cold. Now to forget it in the microwave.

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#177

Post by coldtea »

AcerbicZero wrote: post #173
coldtea wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As I've been reminded countless times, "driving is a privilege not a right". That's just a BS saying, not some rule of nature. Societies should define what is a privilege and what is a right. Do you think if there was a referendum on this specific matter (and not tied to 200 other policy questions, like general elections are), people would vote that "yeah, indeed driving is a privilege"?

>Societies should define what is a privilege and what is a right. That's a hard no. I see where you're going with this, and we likely agree on 90% of this topic anyway, but the issue with society defining rights is that you end up letting the mob decide the "right" of green eyed people to live has just become a privilege. Rights stem from nature, and exist with, or without society. If a society wants to add to the li…

>but the issue with society defining rights is that you end up letting the mob decide the "right" of green eyed people to live has just become a privilege.

That's what those in power try to sell, who think they know better, and that the people are savage animals that need to be kept in place.

In reality, the worse atrocities have been performed not by mobs, or at least not by mobs on their own, but by well educated, powerful people. All those gentlemen slave owners in the South, all those smooth talking Nazi higher ups (with support from Germanys financial elites), the higher echelons of USSR Party power, colonial gentlemen, and so on. Mobs have nothing on them.

>Rights stem from nature, and exist with, or without society.

There are no rights in nature -- something anyone who ventures outside of society (in a jungle, in the woods, etc) will very soon find out. Nobody in nature (outside of a human community) will ever protect their live to live, property, or anything else.

Rights are a social contract, made because man is a conscious, social, animal. The problem is that the contract is more often than not, presented like Terms of Use, already written from those in power.

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#178

Post by pixl97 »

coldtea wrote: post #148
Tomte wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's certainly not the first remedy that the court has taken. But say, if he hadn't been sent to prison, would he have paid child support then? We all don't know, but I strongly suspect no, and I strongly suspect the court has more than just my suspicions and calibrated its reaction accordingly.

> But say, if he hadn't been sent to prison, would he have paid child support then? The amount could have been ordered to be taken from his bank account, or confiscated from his salary directly from his employer or payment system, or taken from his property. There's absolutely nothing that necessitates that he is sent to prison if he merely can't pay. Only if he has money and doesn't pay (and that after accounting fo…

Smith County Texas will eventually get sued for this for indefinite imprisonment. There have been a few cases there where they put people in jail for 'contempt of court' for not paying child support. They throw the person in jail, then as that date comes up they demand the person pay further due child support, and keep said person in jail, but since it's a new charge they can keep doing it again and again and again.

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#179

Post by pixl97 »

dragonwriter wrote: post #105
iooi wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost 50% of the car-owning US population relies on debt to purchase their vehicle [1]. There isn't any data on this, but I think it's safe to assume that younger people that also have student loans don't own their vehicle outright compared to older people that are well into their careers or retirement. [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2019/01/03/the-nu...

> There isn't any data on this, but I think it's safe to assume that younger people that also have student loans don't own their vehicle outright I dunno, having an owned-outright used beater seemed normal among my peer group when I was in/just out of college; having newer, better (relative to contemporaries) vehicles with financing is more common now that we're very well into careers. You can get a student loan with…

Emissions testing makes owning a beater risky.

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#180

Post by vinnyglennon »

deogeo wrote: post #133
massivecali wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I've been reminded countless times, "driving is a privilege not a right". You can lose your license for all kinds of 'unfair' reasons that do not make sense, and I agree it's heavy handed to include student loan debt, but until it is Federally acknowledged that all citizens have a right to drive (after passing proper license tests), then this downward progression will continue. In California you can't even registe…

According to this quora answer [1] that quotes a whole bunch of court cases, the whole 'privilege, not a right' thing is bullshit. Try taking it to the logical conclusion - what else is a privilege, and can therefore be arbitrarily denied? A bank account? Traveling by plane or train? Connecting your house to the power/water/sewage grid? Having a post address? Buying or renting a house? Sending your children to school…

A passport is a privilege not a right
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