Apple blocks Google from running its internal iOS apps • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple blocks Google from running its internal iOS apps

#171

Post by gojomo » Thu, Jan 31, 2019, 10:17 PM UTC

mikeryan wrote: post #101

gojomo wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think they're "very clearly laid out", can you quote the relevant sections, and definitions, from the terms that make it so? I've been searching, and asking, and not seen them yet.

Except as set forth in Section 2.1, You may not use, distribute or otherwise make Your Internal Use Applications available to Your Customers or to any third parties in any way (excluding Your Internal Use Application that is for use on macOS) It’s behind the developer wall but the whole thing is here. https://download.developer.apple.com/Documentation/License_A...

Thanks! But note that section 2.1 expressly allows deployment to "Permitted Users", and "Permitted Users" is defined to include "contractors... who have written and binding agreements with You or Your Permitted Entity to protect Your Internal Use Application from unauthorized use".

Compensated members of these apps' research panels are quite literally "contractors" of FB/Google, and possibly even under written contracts that explicitly limit the apps' use as Apple requires. So what you've quoted doesn't demonstrate a violation.

Re: Apple blocks Google from running its internal iOS apps

#172

Post by seanalltogether » Thu, Jan 31, 2019, 10:18 PM UTC

askafriend wrote: post #43

Let’s say you’re using a Google API like Maps, and you violate terms by snapshotting sections of their maps and storing them on your severs so you can serve static maps without making API calls. They’d shut down your API access immediately Google and Facebook both knew the terms. They both knew that the Enterprise Distribution Program was for internal use only. They still put ads out in the wild to recruit regular co…

Would you be ok if Google blacklisted your domain in the Chrome browser for violating those mapping API terms?

Re: Apple blocks Google from running its internal iOS apps

#173

Post by saagarjha » Thu, Jan 31, 2019, 10:18 PM UTC

Nullabillity wrote: post #28

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it doesn't sit well with me that Apple yields so much power on what software their phones can run after it sells them At the end of the day, you can compile and run anything on your machine. This is just regulating distribution. Given the specific breaches at hand by Facebook and Google, a balance seems to have been found (acceptable to most users) between freedom and security.

> At the end of the day, you can compile and run anything on your machine. Iff you have a Mac. And even then, you need to recompile it every week.

You don't necessarily have to have a Mac, but this makes it significantly easier.

Re: Apple blocks Google from running its internal iOS apps

#174

Post by jimmy1 » Thu, Jan 31, 2019, 10:19 PM UTC

kodablah wrote: post #133

zapzupnz wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Android has 85% of the worldwide smartphone market I think a mistake to make here is thinking that Apple gives a toss.

In fact, one could reasonably say Apple actively tries not to obtain too large of a market percentage to avoid laws affecting monopolies.

> In fact, one could reasonably say Apple actively tries not to obtain too large of a market percentage to avoid laws affecting monopolies.

I would say rather to avoid laws it's to avoid appearing as a commodity and losing its "fashion" or "hip" status. If everyone has an iPhone suddenly it is less desirable to own an iPhone.

Re: Apple blocks Google from running its internal iOS apps

#175

Post by saagarjha » Thu, Jan 31, 2019, 10:19 PM UTC

sandov wrote: post #23

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it doesn't sit well with me that Apple yields so much power on what software their phones can run after it sells them At the end of the day, you can compile and run anything on your machine. This is just regulating distribution. Given the specific breaches at hand by Facebook and Google, a balance seems to have been found (acceptable to most users) between freedom and security.

Can you install rogue apps (i.e. not from apple's store) without jailbreaking the device?

Yes, but they will still have to be signed by an enterprise or developer certificate.

Re: Apple blocks Google from running its internal iOS apps

#176

Post by rhizome » Thu, Jan 31, 2019, 10:19 PM UTC

_bxg1 wrote: post #3

I feel less vengeful satisfaction from this one, but I respect that they're applying their rules consistently. I just hope it doesn't backfire. On a totally personal level, I'd rather Facebook feel the hurt for its audacity than Apple be forced to backtrack because they made too many enemies.

On the other hand: screw them both. They knew the terms, they have the same ones in their own ToS/Rules/etc.

I'd rather Facebook feel the hurt for its audacity than Apple be forced to backtrack because they made too many enemies.

In what way does Apple have anything to fear from FB or Google, or even depend on either of them at all? Where is the "force" going to come from, their users threatening to switch to Android? I don't think these incidents would be enough to lend that eventuality any weight.

Re: Apple blocks Google from running its internal iOS apps

#177

Post by Deimorz » Thu, Jan 31, 2019, 10:19 PM UTC

gojomo wrote: post #154

javagram wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They weren’t. See the terms at https://apple.stackexchange.com/a/193060 “solely for internal use by Your Employees or Permitted Users, or as otherwise expressly permitted in Section 2.1(f).” https://github.com/nicwise/apple-agreements/blob/master/appl... 2.1(f) Allow Your Customers to use Your Internal Use Applications on Deployment Devices, but only (i) on Your physical premises and/or on Your Permitted Entity’s phy…

Thank you for a link to a readable version of the agreement! It looks to me like "Permitted Users" includes "contractors" like those in a compensated research panel, and thus the Facebook/Google uses are plausibly enabled under the program.

Teenagers being paid with gift cards are absolutely not plausibly considered "contractors".

Re: Apple blocks Google from running its internal iOS apps

#178

Post by nostrademons » Thu, Jan 31, 2019, 10:20 PM UTC

gigatexal wrote: post #137

nostrademons wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Android has 85% of the worldwide smartphone market. Apple doesn't exactly have the upper hand in the relationship, but they have enough leverage to make it sting if they decide not to cooperate and to force a reasonable settlement. In my mind, a reasonable settlement includes not installing spyware on users' iPhones through the enterprise development program, so it looks like they're doing precisely that.

Something like 90%+ of the profit from smartphones goes to Apple — if that’s not the upper hand then I don’t know what is. Apple makes profit. Google has a legion of devices with incentives to keep insecure so they can monitor and harvest the data to both serve and sell ads.

That's not the upper hand. The upper hand is having the installed base needed to be able to push through product changes that undermine your competitors' strategic position. Things like being able to continuously track the location of each of your ~2B customers so that you know who is hanging out with whom and can build the social graph that another one of your primary competitors spent a decade curating - or, for that matter, that the KGB causes major diplomatic incidents trying to build.

I think that in this particular case, Google overreached, it's an inconvenience to them, and they'll roll it back. In the general case, though, Google's got way more power than Apple (and more than most nation-states) and they just haven't been called on it yet.

Re: Apple blocks Google from running its internal iOS apps

#179

Post by rdiddly » Thu, Jan 31, 2019, 10:20 PM UTC

"Banning spree" is a bit much, isn't it? If two instances of something constitute a spree, I guess I went on a "handwashing spree" on my last trip to the bathroom earlier.

Re: Apple blocks Google from running its internal iOS apps

#180

Post by jimmy1 » Thu, Jan 31, 2019, 10:20 PM UTC

beerlord wrote: post #129

nostrademons wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Android has 85% of the worldwide smartphone market. Apple doesn't exactly have the upper hand in the relationship, but they have enough leverage to make it sting if they decide not to cooperate and to force a reasonable settlement. In my mind, a reasonable settlement includes not installing spyware on users' iPhones through the enterprise development program, so it looks like they're doing precisely that.

And Apple has market share for the only mobile consumers that matter: rich people and whales.

strikethrough rich people and whales, and replace with people who are willing to spend their disposable income on apps and micro-transactions, of which in that segment contain rich people and whales, but also sometimes people in debt up to their eyeballs and low-income individuals as well.