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H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

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Re: H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

#171

Post by baby »

pramttl wrote: post #139
mykowebhn wrote: post #8

Granted that H-1B visas should ostensibly be filled only for positions where it is difficult to find qualified American citizens or permanent residents, but in all honesty are the Department of Labor's allegations really that surprising? In the Bay Area, qualified job candidates are so scarce that it's quite common for citizens/permanent-residents to change jobs frequently. H1-B candidates are attractive for companie…

A talented (foreign) friend of mine had the opportunity to switch to a better, higher paid role but due to the effort involved, the risk and the pause in H1B premium processing just hung on to his current role. The H1B program itself is not a problem and in-fact is a big positive contributor to the US economy; but it definitely has issues like the one you highlighted (e.g. harder for employees to switch jobs) that sh…

I tried to get the H1B twice, couldn't get it through the lottery, so I had to move out of the US for a year and a half while I was waiting for the green card. The process is so backward.

Re: H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

#172

Post by mavelikara »

raz32dust wrote: post #156
loosescrews wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why can't companies in other locations pay competitively?

They pay competitively for their location. Pay is determined by demand and supply. If you sort H1Bs by pay, the places with highest cost of living will get all of the H1Bs. Perhaps a better idea is to do the same thing, but on pay that is normalized against a cost of living index.

The salary is a proxy for how valuable a job is to the economy. So sorting by salary effectively awards the visas to arguably the most valuable jobs. Also, federal government maximizes it's tax revenue from the visa holders when the visas are awarded by salary.

Re: H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

#173

Post by baby »

d--b wrote: post #134

What's everyone so angry about? Having been through H1B, I think the system is designed fairly well. It's extremely hard to figure out whether a particular hire required a foreign worker. And, in doubt, the US in general always sides with what's easier for companies. So, in doubt, immigration will consider that there is more harm done if a company doesn't get the worker they need than if a US citizen's job is taken b…

Having been through H1B the system is not designed fairly. I tried twice and failed the lottery. So I had to go through a green card process that took a year and a half. Such a waste of time and a lot of moving around countries.

Re: H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

#174

Post by m0zg »

dennisgorelik wrote: post #165
m0zg wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because immigration is not a "right". It's a privilege. And if this privilege is afforded at all, it should be afforded in such a way as to not screw the citizens whom the government represents, through social contract and otherwise. Otherwise the citizens should elect the government that will represent their interests. I mean it's not rocket science, it's civics 101.

Do you imply that working immigrants "screw the citizens"?

As an immigrant it'd be disingenuous for me to suggest that. But the real answer is, it depends. I pay six figures in taxes. I can tolerate a little bit of screwage if my wage gets depressed by increased supply of my skill. Now consider the working poor, who are aiming to get that sweet, sweet $15/hr minimum wage (with benefits!). They're currently objectively screwed because there are hundreds of thousands of people coming over the border willing to work for half that, with no benefits, and tolerate abuse. Or consider a student who has just got her degree and has $100k+ student loan to pay back. Their tolerance for wage depression is a lot lower than mine. So I argue it is not correct to consider "citizens" as a uniform, average mass. Some strata within this mass will do just fine if they are paid a little less, some most definitely will not.

Re: H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

#175

Post by baby »

sn_master wrote: post #51
h1bslave wrote: post #15

I’ve been on h1b for over 7 years now , with no chance of getting a green card because I was born in India , all my immigrant friends who started working at the same time have already gotten their green cards - they all have the option to quit their jobs if they feel like they are being underpaid or exploited. But not me , I’m looking at 70 years before I get my freedom , until then I have to tolerate the indentured…

What are you talking about ? Most Indians I know on H1B did one and sometimes more job transfers it never came as a problem. Don't believe me, go check LinkedIn. I can point you to atleast a dozen profiles of folks I know personally who did that. H1B is perfectly transferable and I don't know anyone who was worried about moving to/within FAANG because of H1B. Enough hyperbole please. Yes, its frustrating to not get g…

Your spouse can't work on a H1B. I know so many people in this situation and it's really shitty.

Re: H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

#176

Post by SamReidHughes »

an_cap wrote: post #140
SamReidHughes wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The primary objection to that idea is the complete destruction of your country's culture.

I suppose you also lament the destruction of masculine work culture engendered by allowing women in the workplace?

What.

One consequence of unlimited immigration to America would be a major setback in women's rights and practical freedom in many pockets of the country.

Re: H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

#177

Post by ghaff »

acpetrov wrote: post #160
austincheney wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Granted that H-1B visas should ostensibly be filled only for positions where it is difficult to find qualified American citizens or permanent residents Sorry the be the bearer of bad news but American developers, on the average, must suck. Developers, on average across the country, make around twice the local average yearly income, so there is clearly not a shortage for a lack of financial compensation. In my exper…

There's a side-effect, however, that's being ignored. If US companies don't like/trust the talent coming out of US colleges, they should have a stake in improving those programs. But if their solution is just to hire immigrants, it cheats colleges out of feedback from industry. Colleges really need more practical courses, at least starting in upper years, that set developers up for success in the workforce. How many…

That's true of pretty much every engineering discipline. You may disagree but university engineering programs, especially at the better schools are not designed as job training programs. Personally, I don't think they should be. The hot technologies today will be last year's news soon enough. For companies that really do want to hire people whose training is focused on the practical, there are always code camps and other professional programs.

Re: H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

#178

Post by patrickg_zill »

geofft wrote: post #126
SamReidHughes wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The primary objection to that idea is the complete destruction of your country's culture.

Again, protectionism. If a billion people in India and a billion people in China are competing in global markets, my country's culture isn't going to survive anyway. How is Ottoman culture doing these days? Honestly, how is the British culture of even a century ago doing these days? How long did the Japanese culture so carefully preserved survive Matthew Perry's arrival? (Also as it happens I'm an American-born child…

You hate the heritage of America, where you never were able to fit in, and want to see it replaced by the same rootless existence that you suffered. If my parents had raised me in India I would have suffered similarly...

Some self-reflection is in order.

Re: H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

#179

Post by alkibiades »

maksimum wrote: post #170
raz32dust wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They pay competitively for their location. Pay is determined by demand and supply. If you sort H1Bs by pay, the places with highest cost of living will get all of the H1Bs. Perhaps a better idea is to do the same thing, but on pay that is normalized against a cost of living index.

I don't think CoL indeces are relevant because salaries are based on how much value a developer brings to the business. Suppose you have two jobs: $140k in NYC, and $100k in Dallas. If only one company can get an H1B, IMO it should clearly be the NYC company. The NYC job will yield higher personal income federal income taxes. Also the NYC job is delivering at least $40k more value to the business than the Dallas job.…

not true. for instance an employee at google hq vs a satellite get paid different based on market rate for developers in that locale. the companies pay based on market rate, not “theoretical value produced”. no one who works there thinks the satellite office engineers are producing less and plenty produce more profit for the company than ones who get paid more

Re: H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

#180

Post by thatcat »

geofft wrote: post #128
diogenescynic wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the dumbest idea I’ve ever seen. Why bother being a country at that point? You’d have 2 billion people moving here tomorrow and living in the streets. Bad idea.

Not sure what you mean by "being a country," but, no, you wouldn't. If they didn't have jobs they couldn't stay. If they did they'd find housing - perhaps some would even build housing for the rest. To imagine that two billion people could move to the US, find employment, and all be homeless is to imagine an interesting form of market failure that I don't yet understand.

Plenty of jobs pay less than a living wage.
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