Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

independent.co.uk

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

171–180 of 271 posts

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#171

Post by kazagistar »

lifeformed wrote: post #137
will_brown wrote: post #33

Well here in the US we have an actual credit system in place. And since basic necessities are often dependent on credit rating (employment; housing purchaes ; rentals; vehicle financing/lease) it’s pretty dystopian. Not to mention for nearly 20 years now we have had secret no fly lists (no due process to get on or off) and even secret kill lists (no due process), I think it’s just another way to skin the cat, and may…

I can't believe people keep equating these two systems. While there are similarities, one is a financial rating and the other is a social rating. The credit system has a lot of issues but it just does what it says on the tin, measuring the same credit card metrics, and had been around for a while without much change. The social rating system seeps into every aspect of a person's life and had no limits for expansion.…

They shouldn't be equated exactly, but the difference is one of severity, not of kind. It's important to keep in mind that the western credit system has victims too, and is a tool for behavior control too, just not nearly to the same severity, but should be carefully tracked for fear of scaling up to the exact horror the Chinese one represents, if not worse.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#172

Post by will_brown »

bitexploder wrote: post #159
will_brown wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Secret kill lists are for terrorits. We don’t kill our own citizens. What we do know is the Us has made multiple drone strikes targeting a US citizen and ultimately killed a US citizen. Two you can’t know how many other citizens are on the kill list, that is the nature of secret kills lists. Three we don’t even know the standard the government uses to label someone a terrorist (us citizen or not) for purposes of the…

Except credit rating isn’t about hierarchy. It is two things (1) pay bills on time — service debt reliably (2) negotiate with creditors when you can’t. People get bad credit because they acquire debt and then fail to service it and think ignoring creditors is the way to go. You can still smoke cigarettes and buy all the video games you want. Just pay your bills.

>People get bad credit because they acquire debt and then fail to service it and think ignoring creditors is the way to go.

Or they are born poor and don’t have access to credit. Thus have limited access to jobs and housing. That continues to prevent them from establishing credit and keeps poor people poor. Also there are plenty of studies showing credit scores in fact are inheriently biased against minorities.

“Just Pay Your Bill”. Exactly as I said the majority loves it, and the majority in China will love it to and say “Just be a good citizen”.

Edit: I realized I’m talking about the dystopia of using credit to limit ones ability to get a job and housing, and you’re talking about ability to buy cigarettes and video games.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#173

Post by tivert »

They've already had parts of this in place for awhile. My aunt-in-law's friend has had difficulty traveling in China because she's mistakenly listed in the system as being some kind of Falun Gong leader through some kind of clerical error. She found out when she was on a bus going on vacation, and they pulled her off the bus once they scanned her national ID.

She has no appeal and no way to correct the mistake. None of the police or officials she's talked to have done anything. She's just stuck with it.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#174

Post by rwmj »

wozmirek wrote: post #128

While I'm terrified by the system, I do remember watching a BBC (I think?) report on this. There was a young Chinese woman there, who felt safer. This made me think - what would women - and women, not the young men (me being one) choose when given a choice of the social credit system or being able to walk around the city safe(r)? Quite general question, yet I do believe they would choose the latter; and I wouldn't bl…

Did they ask someone with a negative rating whether they felt safer too?

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#175

Post by kazagistar »

bitexploder wrote: post #155
coldtea wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Secret kill lists are for terrorits Or so they say. In any case, it's a single country deciding, and that any some ad hoc committee, without a public due process, and targeting people residing on sovereign states. And of course often killing 10-20 nearby people as well, up to 130 for a strike on a wedding: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-yemen-security/death-toll...

Yes, there are examples like this. Collateral damage will happen in war. It is tragic and always will be, and I say that with all sincerity. National security has always been thus and always will be so until there is no such thing as a nation.

There is collateral damage in china's war against its terrorists, and I'm sure they justify it the same. It's bullshit, when you are making up a foreverwar.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#176

Post by paganel »

wozmirek wrote: post #170
paganel wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Feeling safer" has almost nothing to do with the Government watching you and it's almost entirely caused by the local social norms. Case in point and to partly answer your question: I have a woman colleague who has recently moved to London from Bucharest. She told me that while living in Bucharest she had no issue at all going back home alone at 2 or 3 in the morning, while in London she avoids going out all by hers…

Oh, I agree with you m8. I'm terrified with the surveillance stuff. I'd exchange then my "safe(r)" with "more sense of "safety"" (double quote deliberate). Side note, that colleague originates from Bucharest? Just wondering if it's the same with my wife who feels unsafe in Berlin while she feels safer in Krakow.

> Side note, that colleague originates from Bucharest?

Yeap, she has lived her entire life until this summer in Bucharest (she's approaching 30 now), and she hasn't grow up and live in the "posh" parts of town, so to speak.

> Just wondering if it's the same with my wife who feels unsafe in Berlin while she feels safer in Krakow.

It's funny because said colleague (and friend) has moved out to London for a Polish guy, I guess that's where the better-paid jobs are.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#177

Post by Just_Smith »

will_brown wrote: post #160
lifeformed wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't believe people keep equating these two systems. While there are similarities, one is a financial rating and the other is a social rating. The credit system has a lot of issues but it just does what it says on the tin, measuring the same credit card metrics, and had been around for a while without much change. The social rating system seeps into every aspect of a person's life and had no limits for expansion.…

>I can't believe people keep equating these two systems. You want to work here? We are going to have to check your credit! Which system is it? You’re born poor and apply for your first job, a nice government job with nice government benefits, but can’t get it because you don’t have any credit established. Hell youre poor, forget credit you can’t even open a bank account, go apply for a minimum wage job, then head to…

I'm a bit surprised that people in this thread don't seem to understand the parallels between social and economic status. It's not some grand revelation either - it's pretty much common knowledge. There's obviously a distinct difference between these two systems, but to say "China's social credit system has nothing in common with America's financial credit system" is pretty ignorant to how important having good credit is to being successful in America.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#178

Post by AnaniasAnanas »

Kiro wrote: post #129
ultim8k wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disclaimer: I'm Greek and I've left my country. I'm visiting home all the time and yes I still love my friends and family. I love the place and the lifestyle but I don't give a crap for the country.

Not sure you can compare the mess that Greece currently is with the prosperity of living in China (with the drawback of surrendering your privacy).

I have been to Greece and I have friends who live there, and I can say that living in Greece is normal. I am really not sure why would claim that living in Greece is significantly worse than living in China or any other western country.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#179

Post by shaobo »

shaobo wrote: post #59
Majestic121 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, not necessarily. As pointed out in another comment : "Other infractions reportedly include smoking in non-smoking zones, buying too many video games and posting fake news online."

The devil is always in the detail. The "buying too many video games" line came from the gamification aspect of a social network owned by a private enterprise and has nothing to do with the government scheme. And even they have backpedaled from that claim: "Hu Tao, Zhima Credit’s general manager, paints a different picture now. She says the app doesn’t monitor social media posts “nor does it attempt to measure qualita…

I'd love to know why people downvoted me with no explanation.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#180

Post by AnaniasAnanas »

nnq wrote: post #57
ultim8k wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disclaimer: I'm Greek and I've left my country. I'm visiting home all the time and yes I still love my friends and family. I love the place and the lifestyle but I don't give a crap for the country.

> I love the place and the lifestyle but I don't give a crap for the country This kind of attitude is why some countries' economies and social systems turn to crap, ya know...

Is that really so bad if said country hasn't done anything for you? People are not born with the duty to support "their" country in any way possible even if said country has not supported them.
Post reply on HN