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Oracle’s Java 11 trap

blog.joda.org

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Re: Oracle’s Java 11 trap

#171

Post by repolfx »

StreamBright wrote: post #152
dnomad wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is that possible? Are you going to the Oracle download page and downloading the RPMs? Are you specifically adding a repository that includes Oracle software? There are certainly no default repositories that include this code. The whole point (and it's been this way for years) is that you can't download the Oracle jdk without clicking through a license.

New JRE/JDK gets released -> somebody from our company goes and downloads the RPM after accepting the license -> she uploads the RPM into our internal repository -> somebody from another department changes the build scripts to use the new JRE/JDK -> few minutes later we are running the dev clusters with the new JRE/JDK. In this process the person who downloads the new RPM (aka me) has to be 100% sure that the new JDK…

Hmmm. At most you're mad because the bright yellow warning box that tells you specifically to re-read the license because it changed is not clear enough for you, even though apparently being sure about exactly that is your job.

I'm not sure you can blame Oracle for this. They could I guess give you a tl;dr summary in the box. But, how long would it take you to study the new situation? A few minutes?

Re: Oracle’s Java 11 trap

#172

Post by repolfx »

LaGrange wrote: post #153
vbezhenar wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you automate that? You need some kind of cookie to download JDK and you're getting it by clicking a button. The only way to automate it is to simulate "agree" click.

Curl lets you keep a cookie jar around, for example, so yes, it's pretty simple. It's also a terrible idea, but doesn't seem to stop people.

You'd have to update the URL anyway because the v8 JDK hasn't changed, from what I remember. So those scripts wouldn't be affected.

Re: Oracle’s Java 11 trap

#174

Post by repolfx »

sgt wrote: post #123

This is not new, and as per: https://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/terms/license... it was put in place in 2017 already. Seeing that the "LICENSE" of Java 8 simply points to their website, it means that they effectively changed it for Java 8 as well. So that means that even if you're running Java, you have three options: (1) Continue using it illegally, it will probably be a low risk. This is not advisable e…

The situation is confusing but not that confusing.

Java 8 has commercial features that are locked by default. You can unlock them by passing a command line flag that looks like -XX:+UnlockCommercialFeatures, so pretty hard to miss.

If you use those in production, you're meant to pay. But virtually nobody does use them. In fact Oracle open sourced them all for Java 11, perhaps because of that fact.

Now in Java 11 there are two JDKs, that are virtually identical. OpenJDK and Oracle JDK. The latter is the same as the former but commercially supported. If you use it in production at all, you're meant to pay. But the only reason to do that is you want commercial support, from what I understand. There are no longer any special features. If you can support yourself (like most can) you just switch to OpenJDK as part of your Java 11 upgrade.

They have not changed the license for Java 8 users "on the fly", I'm not even sure that's legally possible.

Re: Oracle’s Java 11 trap

#175

Post by Ygg2 »

Leace wrote: post #49
floatboth wrote: post #9

> Download Oracle JDK (because that is what you've always done, and it is what the web-search tells you) What I've always done is install OpenJDK from the system's package manager :P

And that's good that package managers ship only openjdk. When I migrated to Linux I didn't know better but as "openjdk" was easier to install than Oracle JDK I used "openjdk". It turns out it works very well, actually I can't tell the difference.

I've seen issues with really minor difference in OpenJDK and Sun JDK, that forced people to stick with Sun JDK (like some library somewhere doesn't properly work with OpenJDK).

Re: Oracle’s Java 11 trap

#176

Post by int0x80 »

MaxBarraclough wrote: post #5
tyler274 wrote: post #2

as long as openjdk remains open i dont mind

I'm sure all the Linux distros are thinking the same thought. The 'default' JVM for Ubuntu is OpenJDK, right? You'd have to go out of your way to get your hands on Oracle JDK.

Yes. Back in jdk6 days there were more problems requiring oracle jdk, this days is a no brainer to use the default openjdk.

Re: Oracle’s Java 11 trap

#177

Post by repolfx »

codemusings wrote: post #53
baud147258 wrote: post #7

Java 11? At work we haven't even started to look at the migration from Java 8...

You won't be for a long time either because the introduction of modules and the removal of the Unsafe class broke a lot of frameworks apparently.

Unsafe wasn't removed, just a few methods on it.

Re: Oracle’s Java 11 trap

#178

Post by repolfx »

snarfy wrote: post #76
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> by not making their licenses clear How is that? The license is pretty clear, as stated in the article: > You may not: use the Programs for any data processing or any commercial, production, or internal business purposes other than developing, testing, prototyping, and demonstrating your Application; If you cannot understand that language you should not download or use the JDK.

You missed the rest of the quote. > or changing their licenses. It was never clear they were going to change their license after years of making it $free to something not $free.

They have been communicating the changes in how OpenJDK and Oracle JDK work for a year now, through many public talks, announcements, blog posts and so on.

Moreover the changes are good for the community. OpenJDK is now the reference implementation and equivalent to the old Oracle JDK in every way. The only reason to use the Oracle JDK now is to get commercial support from Oracle.

Calling this a "trap" is dumb. Not only did Oracle change the licenses to be better for end users, they are highlighting the changes in a big yellow box and the license is written clearly. OpenJDK is regular GPL + an exception so you don't have to GPL your own apps.

To repeat, Java is getting more free not less.

Re: Oracle’s Java 11 trap

#179

Post by AnimalMuppet »

craigsmansion wrote: post #79
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> by not making their licenses clear How is that? The license is pretty clear, as stated in the article: > You may not: use the Programs for any data processing or any commercial, production, or internal business purposes other than developing, testing, prototyping, and demonstrating your Application; If you cannot understand that language you should not download or use the JDK.

Of course an Eldritch Horror apologist is going to take Oracle's side. Have you ever considered being eaten first isn't all it's made out to be?

I downvoted and flagged you for this comment. Then I caught the GP's user name, and undid both...
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