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Tesla in autopilot mode crashes into parked Laguna Beach police cruiser

latimes.com

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Re: Tesla in autopilot mode crashes into parked Laguna Beach police cruiser

#171

Post by gutnor »

abalone wrote: post #102

I keep wondering what the customer benefit of Level 2 autopilot is if not to lower your attention and relax your mind. Tesla's "out" is that drivers are supposed to retain full attention and oversight of the autopilot system -- but then if you strictly follow this rule, what is the benefit of autopilot? I can see the benefit to Tesla and future Tesla customers of essentially crowdsourced fleet learning. But what is t…

The actual benefit is to have the car handles itself in situation where you would be distracted regardless.

I engage similar system on my car before fiddling with the attention seeking touch screen, or when I need to give a quick look at the kids behind. Another is traffic jam: a lot of nothing going followed by a lot of things going on - focus on the wrong thing and you can rear end somebody. Minor benefit are some fuel saving if you are a "dynamic" driver, and it can make you more relax in stressful situation like the traffic jam above.

That's just to answer your question. I completely agree with you that the feature is overhyped, not worth paying much for it and actively promoting dangerous driving behaviour. However, it nowadays comes nearly for free as a consequence of other very useful systems: the whole set of emergency braking scenario (emergency, cruise control, safety distance, pedestrian, ...), line keeping assist, blind spot monitoring. It has its uses, if you remain aware of its shortcomings.

Re: Tesla in autopilot mode crashes into parked Laguna Beach police cruiser

#172

Post by mentat »

confiscate wrote: post #91

I don't get it, why is it so hard to detect stationary objects in front of you? wouldn't that be the "hello world" of any self-driving tech? Every time I ask this question, the response is "radar as a technology has too much noise, not accurate enough to detect stationary objects". But it DOES detect stationary objects. Otherwise no one would even turn on Tesla AP at all. Why is it so hard to detect stationary object…

Subaru Eye Sight does this reliably and actually auto brakes correctly. Going from that to APv2 has been a real step back. There's a curve on 92W that it consistently try to accelerate you into an embankment. I think Elon just doesn't understand the real world reality of how bad AP is.

Re: Tesla in autopilot mode crashes into parked Laguna Beach police cruiser

#173

Post by fareesh »

Autopilot is like the steering wheel, brake, stickshift, etc. You don't get to blame an accident on it. Airplanes have autopilot as well. We live in a world where movies like jackass are made, based on real people and their attitudes. It's not reasonable to suggest that safety labels or terminology can fix everything. Some people are plain irresponsible and foolish.

Re: Tesla in autopilot mode crashes into parked Laguna Beach police cruiser

#174

Post by mikeash »

ebikelaw wrote: post #162
mikeash wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think airplane autopilots require any specific training. If you’re allowed to fly the plane, you’re allowed to use the autopilot.

If your aircraft is equipped with automation you may be required to demonstrate proficient use of the automation during your check ride. Any piece of equipment installed in the aircraft is fair game for the evaluator during a practical test.

Yes, but as long as you're flying something that doesn't require a type rating, you can take your checkride in a plane without autopilot, pass, then hop into a plane that has one and start using it.

Re: Tesla in autopilot mode crashes into parked Laguna Beach police cruiser

#175

Post by mentat »

DannyBee wrote: post #134
mikeash wrote: post #30

How many non-Autopilot cars have crashed into parked vehicles? It happens a lot, to the extent that a lot of states have “move over” laws explicitly designed to reduce it. Does Autopilot actually make the problem worse, or is it just more newsworthy?

If you go look at IIHS, they have tests that will tell you exactly how good non-Autopilot cars are at this kind of crash avoidance: I cannot find any current (2018) car that crashes into the parked car. (I only spot-checked prior years). I found one in 2014 (audi q5) that hits the car at 1mph when going 12mph. http://www.iihs.org/iihs/ratings/vehicle/v/audi/q5-4-door-su... By contrast, the 2014 subaru outback avoids…

Subaru Outback is vastly superior collision avoidance than AP which probably says a lot about software quality. It certainly doesn't have better sensors.

Re: Tesla in autopilot mode crashes into parked Laguna Beach police cruiser

#176

Post by beamatronic »

jfim wrote: post #115
ModernMech wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The manufacturer puts a warning label, but the usage model/UI is clearly flawed. Not just the model/UI but the actual sensor suite. Remember, the Tesla that resulted in a decapitation had over-saturated cameras that couldn't see a tractor trailer. Of course, that's where the UI comes into play, because if the driver hadn't been watching Harry Potter, he would have seen the tractor trailer as well.

That's the thing, how do you make an UI that unambiguously conveys that the car hasn't seen an object in front of it, so that the driver can react to it? Maybe with AR the car could highlight the objects detected so that the driver can brake if the car doesn't see an object it knows about, but a head mounted display seems pretty clunky.

Well, how does an airplane do it. A loud robot voice that goes “PULL... UP...”

Re: Tesla in autopilot mode crashes into parked Laguna Beach police cruiser

#177

Post by mirceal »

mikeash wrote: post #47
mirceal wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pardon my ignorance: what is a “move over” law? What do you need to do?

It means that when passing a stopped emergency vehicle, you need to change lanes to avoid passing right next to them (“move over”) or slow down substantially.

Thanks. I was already doing this even though I don’t know of any law that requires it where I live. You learn something every day.

Re: Tesla in autopilot mode crashes into parked Laguna Beach police cruiser

#178

Post by beamatronic »

aetherson wrote: post #157
jellicle wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think people realize that "Tesla Autopilot" will never, ever, ever stop for an object in front of it. Tesla has said repeatedly it isn't designed to do so. If you run a Tesla toward a brick wall with Autopilot on, it will crash into it 100 out of 100 times. It will hit ANYTHING in the lane ahead of you. It isn't designed to stop in such cases. So there's no need for a UI. If there's something ahead of you, yo…

What? That's not true. It can and does brake for objects in front of you that it senses. Its ability to sense objects is sadly very incomplete, but it does (quite often, but not often enough) successfully sense objects and slow or stop for them. See page 93 of this owner's manual, for example: https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/model_s_owners_man... (What it won't do is steer around obstructions in a lane, eit…

What is the difference between “objects in front of you that it senses” and “obstructions in a lane”?

Re: Tesla in autopilot mode crashes into parked Laguna Beach police cruiser

#179

Post by madeofpalk »

askafriend wrote: post #20
shanghaiaway wrote: post #9

Another auto pilot crash. List so far: 1 Hebei, Fatal China crash https://jalopnik.com/two-years-on-a-father-is-still-fighting... 2 Florida, Fatal Joshua Brown crashes into truck. https://jalopnik.com/tesla-driver-in-fatal-florida-crash-got... 3 Mountain view, Fatal Model X crash. https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/03/30/tesla-autopilot-was-o... 4 Reference to auto-pilot crash in Hayward. http://abc7news.com/automotive…

This list is misguided. How many crashes do we have from people using regular cruise control features? Is the incident rate per mile when using Autopilot from Tesla higher or lower than regular cruise control? Those are the right questions in my opinion.

Few questions that would be helpful to know the answer to

- accident rate of Tesla drivers that don’t use autopilot

- accident rate of other cars in the same market/category as Tesla’s (are wealthy people better drivers?)

- accident rate of cars with Tesla Autopilot engaged

- accident rate of other cars with similar ‘assistive’ technologies.

Re: Tesla in autopilot mode crashes into parked Laguna Beach police cruiser

#180

Post by beamatronic »

dirkgently wrote: post #62
AceJohnny2 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Blame Elon Musk. I'm serious. He's been promising "self-driving" for years, except the damn technology isn't ready/safe enough for what people are clearly using this from. The manufacturer puts a warning label, but the usage model/UI is clearly flawed. His engineers know this, which is why Tesla's self-driving group has had such a high turnover rate over the last few years. Musk keeps overriding them.

Tesla's "Auto-pilot" is one of the most blatant market-speak lies I have come across lately, and they have been getting away it.

I feel like I-5 between SF and LA is probably one of the safer places to use it. Any place else, maybe not so much.
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