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Many People Taking Antidepressants Discover They Cannot Quit

nytimes.com

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Re: Many People Taking Antidepressants Discover They Cannot Quit

#171

Post by Fnoord »

DanBC wrote: post #104
vanderZwan wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the "irresponsibility" was aimed at the medical field, not at the patients. At least that was how I decided to read it. EDIT: Also, I think that even for the patients where the cause of the depression is not "chemical" in origin, that does not reduce the severity of the illness in the slightest. It just means that the causes may lie elsewhere (for example externally). I have been depressed as an indirect resu…

SSRIs help even if the causes are psycho-social. Obviosuly the person also needs the other stuff too in those cases - fixing the situation; some talking therapy - but meds aren't useless. No-one credible talks about a chemical imbalance anymore.

Yep, though its the most common reason, SSRIs are not only prescribed for depression be it mild or severe. Anxiety is another rather common reason SSRIs get prescribed, and in my case Fluoxetine for ASD.

Its anecdotal but I know that in my specific case it helps.. a lot! I can focus better, I am less anxious, I'm happier (though that is not my main complaint at all), and most of all I get less agitated. That doesn't just help me; it helps my significant other, our newborn, my co-employees, and my family in general (don't have friends).

Re: Many People Taking Antidepressants Discover They Cannot Quit

#172

Post by intralizee »

0xcde4c3db wrote: post #143
intralizee wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How exactly is the cost really low? The study you linked doesn't scientifically prove antidepressants help. Exactly, what undue bias against antidepressants have you found?

I often see antidepressants held to more stringent standards of evidence, theoretical backing, and safety than other treatments. It's pretty common to see someone claim that the chemical imbalance theory is bunk and that antidepressants don't outperform placebo, then glowingly endorse something else with markedly less scientific support as a treatment for depressive disorders (e.g. exercise, supplements, insight-orie…

I’m not sure how this adds to answering the questions and which I’m apparently downvotes for curiosity. Apparently treatment in regard to a diagnosis of depression does not need scientific standards of evidence and we should just experiment on people willing to trust misinformative beliefs of promoting unclear benefits which may not exist.

Re: Many People Taking Antidepressants Discover They Cannot Quit

#173

Post by mirimir »

azernik wrote: post #168
mirimir wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmmm. I suppose that I was hypermanic. And maybe it wasn't so much that I was affectless, but that it wasn't appropriate affect. OK, for example, I would be driving, in a hurry. And without much emotion or warning, I'd find myself running red lights and whatever. Laughing. I remember an accident, where the other driver said something like "Where the hell did you come from?" And I almost said something like "God sent…

Ooooh. Yeah, that's definitely full-blown mania. Delusions of grandeur, risk-seeking behavior, euphoria.

Well, there really wasn't much euphoria, as I recall. More stoic cynicism.

I like to say a little on the manic side. I feel more alive. But not too much, because it's bad for me. Now I can just be happy and energetic.

Re: Many People Taking Antidepressants Discover They Cannot Quit

#174

Post by ada1981 »

dbasedweeb wrote: post #93
ada1981 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An alternate to psychosis as something to interrupt is that it's a biological process that happens when the default mode network isn't sufficient. The ideal environment is one in which the psychosis can complete. It's very similar to a psychedelic journey in that with the right set and setting it can lead to deeper compassion, clarity and connection. I've been through a number of such experiences over the years; I us…

I’m not going to be able to debate the validity of your experiences of course, and I won’t try to. I can say with confidence however that for most people, psychosis is strongly correlated with poor outcomes including homelessness and suicide. Early intervention and prevention leads to the best outcomes, and the more psychotic events in a persons life, the worse the outcomes are on average.

Of course, this isn't a study, but if you are interested in the beautifully rich world of "altpsy" I just came across this TED Talk.

https://www.ted.com/speakers/eleanor_longden

Re: Many People Taking Antidepressants Discover They Cannot Quit

#175

Post by vanderZwan »

fogzen wrote: post #57
gabept wrote: post #35

The "Chemical Imbalence Theory", although heavely popular and promoted, is largely unfounded on science: https://joannamoncrieff.com/2014/05/01/the-chemical-imbalanc...

SSRI’s are no more effective than placebo or exercise in multiple studies: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3674785/#

We only recently have figured out how exercise protects the brain against stress-induced depression[0]. In short: red muscle (the endurance kind) produces an enzyme that breaks down kynurenine, one of the stress hormones that is associated with triggering all kinds of mental illnesses when it stays at chronically elevated levels.

But there are many more possible causes of depression than stress - one could compare it to a fever: a high fever kills, but there are many possible illnesses leading to a fever. Expecting that exercise helps with depression every time is like assuming every fever is caused by the same illness. Not to mention the fact that while having more red muscle may help with coping with chronic stress, it does not actually fix the cause of chronic stress in and of itself (although it can of course help with providing someone with the mental fortitude needed to take on that particular problem).

There are all kinds of reasons to do more exercise, but touting them as a catch-all fix for depression is dangerous and ignorant.

[0] https://ki.se/en/news/how-physical-exercise-protects-the-bra...

Re: Many People Taking Antidepressants Discover They Cannot Quit

#176

Post by vanderZwan »

jdietrich wrote: post #42
aviv wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't cure any of these disorders. All they can do is reduce the symptoms just enough between each pill you pop.

Psychological treatments like exposure therapy are highly effective in treating PTSD, panic disorder and phobia. A significant proportion of people with severe anxiety-related disorders can be completely cured in a matter of weeks. It doesn't work for everyone, but thousands of lives have been transformed by psychotherapy. The best available evidence suggests that psychological treatments are equally effective as dru…

> Psychiatry is an incredibly challenging field and there are a lot of things we just don't know

Yet. Let us remain optimistic :)

Re: Many People Taking Antidepressants Discover They Cannot Quit

#177

Post by vanderZwan »

Fnoord wrote: post #171
DanBC wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SSRIs help even if the causes are psycho-social. Obviosuly the person also needs the other stuff too in those cases - fixing the situation; some talking therapy - but meds aren't useless. No-one credible talks about a chemical imbalance anymore.

Yep, though its the most common reason, SSRIs are not only prescribed for depression be it mild or severe. Anxiety is another rather common reason SSRIs get prescribed, and in my case Fluoxetine for ASD. Its anecdotal but I know that in my specific case it helps .. a lot! I can focus better, I am less anxious, I'm happier (though that is not my main complaint at all), and most of all I get less agitated. That doesn't…

> don't have friends

Hey, you can work on that! Especially now that you have medication that seems to catch on.

Re: Many People Taking Antidepressants Discover They Cannot Quit

#178

Post by Fnoord »

brookside wrote: post #160
Fnoord wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It means a lot, it means that the person who's responsible for your therapy (which might involve drugs) has studied for years (it takes a while until one's a psychiatrist!). It means they understand the fundamentals required for their title. Such credentials are worth a lot in our societies, hence the high wage. Perhaps not in the alternative medicine field where you're flocking around but realise you are the excepti…

> Such credentials are worth a lot in our societies, hence the high wage. Lots of professionals with great titles and affiliations steer people down a totally incorrect path. An easy example of this is Harvard study published in the New England Journal of Medicine promoting dietary fat reduction, shaping what every credentialed person would advise for diet for the next 50 years: https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-wa…

> Lots of professionals with great titles and affiliations steer people down a totally incorrect path.

Not knowingly, and they're expert on the field. There's a few exceptions, but those people are not 100% in the head. Diederik Stapel [1] being a recent example in social psychology.

The chance that you have a sitter without a clue is much higher. Especially because those are usually "friendz". The chance a professional knows better than a self-proclaimed expert is simply too high to discount all professionals.

> Drug companies shoulder the rep of being cold evil capitalists. Psychiatrists also become extremely wealthy as part of this medical complex, and get to keep a positive reputation. It reminds me of ticketmaster essentially being paid to shoulder negative PR for excessive ticket fees which are often largely passed on to performers.

In The Netherlands, you first try the drugs which are most likely to solve your problem but also you need to consider what gets reimbursed by insurance. Insurance also wants you to go for cheapest generic brand if possible (if patents expired, and the drug is known to work for your ailment). Example: something like Concerta doesn't get reimbursed because Ritalin exists and is considered the generic form. Even though the yo-yo effect is more severe with Ritalin.

Another example, I had the option of going for a SSRI or a SSRI plus antipsychotics. The former has a good track record for people with autism; the latter combo better but it also has more impact. Regular blood checks, and basic insurance doesn't cover the antipsychotics.

As for the positive reputation, when I went for my autism diagnosis I had an anamnesis from an asshole of a psychiatrist. He was working there temporary because they fired their regular psychiatrist very recently. I don't know exactly why, but I do know it was directly related to his functioning as a psychiatrist.

Ticketmaster problem is different (and offtopic though I don't mind analogies). It can be solved by putting a cap by law on how much percentage profit (e.g. 25%) second hand market may earn. That does require political willpower and enforcement of such regulation.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diederik_Stapel

Re: Many People Taking Antidepressants Discover They Cannot Quit

#179

Post by [deleted] »

aviv wrote: post #97
vanderZwan wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Modern medicine is not in the business of curing diseases. I know enough people in the field of modern medicine to know that that is hyperbole. At least in the European countries that I have lived in. EDIT: I am sorry to hear from the responses to this that this may not be quite so hyperbolic in the US. I hope that trend will be reversed somehow.

Quite symbolic that my original comment is flagged and now invisible. That's exactly how truth is being suppressed in the US. Original comment was: This shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone. Modern medicine is not in the business of curing diseases. It's all about disease and symptom management.

[deleted]

Re: Many People Taking Antidepressants Discover They Cannot Quit

#180

Post by vanderZwan »

contingencies wrote: post #162

It's the other heroin. People can't get off the stuff, and it's everywhere. In about 2012 I visited Copenhagen, capital of Denmark, which was until recently allegedly the self-reported "happiest nation on earth". I found it extremely weird that everyone was perfectly dressed and all the interiors were spotless, but nobody was smiling. It was like I had walked on to the set of some kind of dystopian movie. Mentioning…

> "It's because they're all on antidepressants!"

Well, in the same period I have lived next to Copenhagen for three years (in Malmö) and this does not match my experience of the city nor the country in general in the slightest.

Perhaps you visited near the end of winter, or when spring just started and the sun hadn't fully returned? The long winters can suck out the energy of anyone near the end of them, but during every other part of the year the Danes I know are a very cheerful bunch.

More likely though, I think it's a different attitude towards smiling itself. In the US it seems like much more of a social thing: aside from spontaneous, genuine smiles, there is also smiling as part of how you present yourselves to others, almost like a form of politeness. That doesn't apply to European cultures.

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