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Many People Taking Antidepressants Discover They Cannot Quit

nytimes.com

121–130 of 233 posts

Re: Many People Taking Antidepressants Discover They Cannot Quit

#121
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Both drugs have mechanisms of action we don’t fully yet [sic] understand, and both may cause serious side effects. This is an extremely narrow and arbitrary ruleset you are applying... If not merely because of the word "fully". That's a given in science. > How is suggesting psychedelics more dangerous than suggesting the use of antidepressants? Because psychedelics are not approved, you don't know the source/purity…

Well, at least with plant medicines we have thousands of years of safe human use. Mushrooms appear to be one of the safest mind altering substances known to man, and if used responsibly, can be healing. Of course, they do show you what's inside, and for many people, they is going to terrify them. That is sort of the point though, to stare down the parts you've long ignored.

> Well, at least with plant medicines we have thousands of years of safe human use.

Wow, that's the most obvious argumentum ad antiquitatem I read this year.

"For thousands of years Christians have believed in Jesus Christ. Christianity must be true, to have persisted so long even in the face of persecution."

Sounds familiar? Straight out of the book. [1]

What's more, just because its natural or plants doesn't mean it is safe. Example: botulinum toxin the most toxic toxin known to mankind which you might know better under the name botox, entirely natural produced by bacteria.

What matters is that it is standardised, of known origin (traceable/provable), well studied in clinical trials, and the mechanisms well understood.

SSRIs fit all those characteristics, only the latter one not.

We certainly did not have thousands of years of standardised, safe human use. Heck, we didn't even have thousands of years of safe human use to begin with.

We didn't have known origin (a good movie about this is Into The Wild [2], btw). Especially not with amateurs. Doctors were more proficient, but not for thousands of years with every substance.

And studies, back then not. You had doctors and witches.

We've come a very long way.

> Mushrooms appear to be one of the safest mind altering substances known to man, and if used responsibly, can be healing.

> Of course, they do show you what's inside, and for many people, they is going to terrify them. That is sort of the point though, to stare down the parts you've long ignored.

I have used psilocybin, A. muscaria, Ayahuasca, MDMA (or God knows WTF it was) among a myriad of other drugs (the first 3 bought online when it was legal in my country). Terrifying it was -for the most part- not. I had fun and insightful experiences, but now that I am older I realise I was reckless [because I am sensitive to drugs and have autism]. I know you too will, at some point in your life realise how reckless you were when you used recreational drugs. And then you will perhaps realise how reckless it was to recommend that to random strangers. And perhaps you will feel utter regret. Au revoir, all the best to you.

[1] https://infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/logic.html#antiqu...

[2] https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0758758/

Re: Many People Taking Antidepressants Discover They Cannot Quit

#122
post #105
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Both drugs have mechanisms of action we don’t fully yet [sic] understand, and both may cause serious side effects. This is an extremely narrow and arbitrary ruleset you are applying... If not merely because of the word "fully". That's a given in science. > How is suggesting psychedelics more dangerous than suggesting the use of antidepressants? Because psychedelics are not approved, you don't know the source/purity…

> SSRIs are not psychoactive, and better studied. The whole point of taking SSRI's is to affect the mind, so they are literally psychoactive. They are better studied, but the risks you mentioned are associated with SSRI's as well as LSD. Do you have evidence/study that shows LSD is more dangerous than SSRIs? LSD not being studied as much doesn't mean it's more dangerous...

> The whole point of taking SSRI's is to affect the mind, so they are literally psychoactive.

Yes, they are; I meant psychedelic/hallucinogenic.

> They are better studied, but the risks you mentioned are associated with SSRI's as well as LSD.

Yes, but the possible side effects are well documented and users are informed and screened beforehand and there is professional guidance (by licensed professionals who studied for it) in contrast to recreational drugs use.

You know better what you dabble into when you follow the regular scientific path than the alternative path which is full with shenanigans, amateurs, wannabe experts, hippies, and downright dangerous, sick human beings.

> LSD not being studied as much doesn't mean it's more dangerous than any of the SSRIs.

Ultimately, this is irrelevant. You look at the current scientific evidence when you decide which treatment you want to follow. Recreational usage of LSD to self-medicate is very low on that list: actually, it shouldn't even be on that list until its scientifically tested in clinical trials. The lack of that doesn't mean we should just suggest it to random strangers; we ought not to!

> Do you have evidence/study that shows LSD is more dangerous than SSRIs?

No, stop turning it around. The burden of proof lies at you. You claim LSD is as useful or more useful than SSRIs.

Re: Many People Taking Antidepressants Discover They Cannot Quit

#123
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An alternate to psychosis as something to interrupt is that it's a biological process that happens when the default mode network isn't sufficient. The ideal environment is one in which the psychosis can complete. It's very similar to a psychedelic journey in that with the right set and setting it can lead to deeper compassion, clarity and connection. I've been through a number of such experiences over the years; I us…

I’m not going to be able to debate the validity of your experiences of course, and I won’t try to. I can say with confidence however that for most people, psychosis is strongly correlated with poor outcomes including homelessness and suicide. Early intervention and prevention leads to the best outcomes, and the more psychotic events in a persons life, the worse the outcomes are on average.

Oh I don't disagree. I think the entire culture and system isn't set up for proper integration of psychosis. So given the current landscape, it makes sense that outcomes are so poor. It takes resources of time and emotional capacity to make it through.

Dr. Paris Williams has an incredible book called Rethinking Madness that was instrumental in helping me adopt a framework to complete a psychosis.

Re: Many People Taking Antidepressants Discover They Cannot Quit

#124
post #85
post #64

Is there a reason why people are trying to stop taking it? If it helps your life, why not keep using it? For example, I have been taking antihistamine daily for the last 18 years for skin allergy. My QoL is significantly better with it, and unless there is some magical cure, I don't see why I should stop just because it's a "drug", "chemical" or "unnatural". For example, from the article, > "A year and a half after s…

Because depression isn't a lifelong thing, it should be at worst episodic. Because SSRIs have side effects, and you tolerate those if it's preventing depression, but you might not tolerate them if you're now taking a medication for life.

>Because depression isn't a lifelong thing, it should be at worst episodic.

Says who? The DSM-5 specifically lists Persistent Depressive Disorder, formerly known as dysthymia, which is defined by chronic depressive symptoms for a period of two years or more. Many people suffer from frequent episodes of major depression; there's fairly good evidence that antidepressants can reduce the risk and severity of relapses.

Patients shouldn't be taking antidepressants in the long term by default, but it's a very good option for a lot of people. If you've had two or three previous episodes of major depression that have been successfully treated by antidepressants and you find the side-effects tolerable, taking them indefinitely might be a perfectly sensible decision.

Re: Many People Taking Antidepressants Discover They Cannot Quit

#125
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't cure any of these disorders. All they can do is reduce the symptoms just enough between each pill you pop.

How is that a bad thing? Sure, a cure would be _significantly_ better, but reducing symptoms can result in a vastly better quality of life.

Take Crohn's for example. Sure you can be on Remicade for a decade with no significant flare-ups. Then the day Remicade stops being effective you're completely screwed. Plus your situation got worse over time, you just didn't get the messages your body has been trying to send you. Remicade was essentially the firewall.

Re: Many People Taking Antidepressants Discover They Cannot Quit

#126
post #122
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> SSRIs are not psychoactive, and better studied. The whole point of taking SSRI's is to affect the mind, so they are literally psychoactive. They are better studied, but the risks you mentioned are associated with SSRI's as well as LSD. Do you have evidence/study that shows LSD is more dangerous than SSRIs? LSD not being studied as much doesn't mean it's more dangerous...

> The whole point of taking SSRI's is to affect the mind, so they are literally psychoactive. Yes, they are; I meant psychedelic/hallucinogenic. > They are better studied, but the risks you mentioned are associated with SSRI's as well as LSD. Yes, but the possible side effects are well documented and users are informed and screened beforehand and there is professional guidance (by licensed professionals who studied f…

I'm not turning anything around. The claim I was responding to was that suggesting the use of LSD was more dangerous or more irresponsible than suggesting the use of SSRIs.

I'll say it again: There's no evidence the use of LSD is more dangerous than SSRI's.

Re: Many People Taking Antidepressants Discover They Cannot Quit

#127
post #54

I've seen enough people in my life become addicted to antidepressants because of a traumatizing event in their life for me to have a dark outlook on it. Instead of therapy or taking real course of action to resolve the trauma/inner problem, a doctor will just label a person suffering depression. The greatest use of an umbrella-word "Depression" to get people on prescription medication and typically the problem never…

There is no doubt that antidepressant therapy needs to be combined with psychotherapy, sports, meditation and just reducing the unhealthy parts of your life. The cost of taking antidepressants is really low however. Most of the time, they have almost no side effects, and are proven to help https://www.bmj.com/content/360/bmj.k847 Where I live, they are pretty cheap. I find that there is undue bias against antidepress…

I've seen cases where antidepressants saved people's lives. I've also seen cases where they were pushed on people who needed psychotherapy and not medication. Access to quality psychotherapy is unfortunately very low.

Re: Many People Taking Antidepressants Discover They Cannot Quit

#128
post #116
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What study shows LSD is more dangerous than SSRI’s? Except that's not how it works. How it works is that SSRIs have been tested in trials, and are approved. LSD isn't. When someone says "try LSD" (or psilocybin which seems the newest rage these days) it means they'd illegally acquire the drug (who know for sure what drug they bought? [EDIT: and who knows the dosage/strength of active substance(s)?]), and administer…

You keep saying "professional" as if that means anything here. The professionals that without any evidence promoted the low-serotonin theory of depression. Who, after over a decade of prescribing SSRI's finally admitted that low serotonin doesn't cause depression. Yeah, those professionals. They don't know what causes depression yet they're happy to keep prescribing drugs. But it's the "self-medicating new age hippie…

It means a lot, it means that the person who's responsible for your therapy (which might involve drugs) has studied for years (it takes a while until one's a psychiatrist!). It means they understand the fundamentals required for their title. Such credentials are worth a lot in our societies, hence the high wage. Perhaps not in the alternative medicine field where you're flocking around but realise you are the exception here; not the norm.

Also, those professionals aren't necessarily the same people. Do you fault Linus Torvalds for a bug in the Windows NT kernel because he's a software developer? Science is constantly in motion and questioning itself. The drug usage in the past before drugs were illegal (pre-2nd part of 20th century) was more irresponsible, and its thanks to science and law this has reduced. And specifically, SSRIs are more safe than antidepressants used before SSRIs such as TCAs and MAOIs.

Re: Many People Taking Antidepressants Discover They Cannot Quit

#129
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, at least with plant medicines we have thousands of years of safe human use. Mushrooms appear to be one of the safest mind altering substances known to man, and if used responsibly, can be healing. Of course, they do show you what's inside, and for many people, they is going to terrify them. That is sort of the point though, to stare down the parts you've long ignored.

> Well, at least with plant medicines we have thousands of years of safe human use. Wow, that's the most obvious argumentum ad antiquitatem I read this year. "For thousands of years Christians have believed in Jesus Christ. Christianity must be true, to have persisted so long even in the face of persecution." Sounds familiar? Straight out of the book. [1] What's more, just because its natural or plants doesn't mean i…

What's reckless about it? It also seems reckless to suggest using SSRIs when we know low-serotonin does not cause depression. We know the hypothesis of low-serotonin causing depression is false, which is the entire reason for engineering then prescribing SSRIs. Yet they're still prescribed despite dubious efficacy at treating depression, and risk of dangerous side-effects and dependence.

Re: Many People Taking Antidepressants Discover They Cannot Quit

#130
post #40

"Cannot stop" is kind of strong. More like "have nasty side effects while tapering off and puss out". Having been on the Zoloft,I can say is got a black box warning for a reason and should only be taken if you're seriously in danger of self harm. Shrinks like it because it keeps people coming back. People like it because they're not willing to confront their real problems and want something to numb themselves out. Ju…

As someone currently on a somewhat high dose of sertraline (100mg b.d.), "numb themselves out" feels like an odd descriptor to use. That seems more like a benzodiazapine-class drug, and certainly doesn't match my experiences (it makes me more prone to insomnia, which I would not associate with a numbing agent) and wouldn't be otherwise be enjoyable/desirable but for the fact that it treats real problems (for me, OCD…

Some people do get what they'd describe as emotional numbing. Think of it as a decreased range of emotion. Sertraline has a relatively higher incidence of this than other SxRI's
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