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Lead is even deadlier than was feared

theguardian.com

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Re: Lead is even deadlier than was feared

#171

Post by LyndsySimon »

tombrossman wrote: post #141
SlowRobotAhead wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is how I have understood it. The real danger in using lead for soldering, is not the inhaling of the smoke/vapors, but that you are touching lead and will later touch your eyes and mouth. Using lead for soldering is likely fine, but be extra judicious about washing your hands, avoid touching mucous membranes.

You can buy hand soap specifically for lead and other heavy metals. One widely available brand is "D-Lead" and it's common to see it at hand-washing stations at shooting ranges, where you are expected to clean up your spent cartridges (they are a slip hazard).

Yep - and to extend on this, when you wash your hands after handling lead you should use cold water.

Re: Lead is even deadlier than was feared

#172

Post by olivermarks »

newnewpdro wrote: post #123
watmough wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe that lead in petrol / gasoline still exists as there are not one but two effects from lead. One is that lead helps promoting burning of the gasoline versus explosion or knocking. Two is that lead is a great lubricant for the valve surfaces, preventing them eroding, leaking or sticking as they open / close. Eroding causes the engine to lose compression and efficiency, and sticking (as I have experienced firs…

This is correct, but it's also been overstated how important the lubricating properties of leaded gasoline were in these engines - while the harmful health effects were understated. [1] [1] www.walshcarlines.com/pdf/mechanicalimplications.d4e.pdf

I've found it varies by engine type. International Harvester light line SV engines for example definitely benefit from lead additives to fuel. Zinc additives in oil is another 'be kind to your engine' additive https://zddplus.com

Re: Lead is even deadlier than was feared

#173

Post by ethbro »

jabl wrote: post #107
ethbro wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the linked article, it's nice to see they moderated to a "fuel formulation change + limited engine modifications" approach. It seems unwise, chemically speaking, to expect we'll be able to find a drop in replacement that's less toxic (vs creating something that we find out is toxic in another 50 years).

Seems fatalistic to assume that getting rid of TEL will automatically mean it'll be replaced with something equally nasty, or even worse. I don't think it's out of the question that improvements in refining technology has made it possible and economical enough to create a fuel with a high enough octane rating without resorting to TEL or other metal-organic additives. E.g. the Shell stuff that is being investigated by…

I should moderate my comment a bit. I'm not expecting the replacement to be equally or more toxic, but I have skepticism that it's going to be non-toxic.

Presumably you're tangential to the chemical-synthesis industry? It seems like there's a disturbingly low bar for "We found a compound that will do a thing! Okay, as long as it isn't food / a drug / incorporates already banned substances... put it into production!" (20 years pass) Substantial toxicity found.

Re: Lead is even deadlier than was feared

#174

Post by jabl »

fencepost wrote: post #170
mixmastamyk wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most electrical cords have it in them as well. Believe stuff from IKEA doesn't though as it meets EU standards.

Look for "RoHS"[1] on labels and electronics. That governs a list of materials, but I suspect the most common is lead. Among other things, this is the origin of significant usage of lead-free solder, which has led to its own set of issues in electronics (brittle joins, tin whiskers, etc). [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restriction_of_Hazardous_Sub...

Seems there was a lot of hoopla about lead-free solders back in the day, but it seems industry did figure out such solders and protocols to use them properly, and contrary to various predictions, the sky hasn't fallen.

Looking at the state of e-waste "recycling" in 3rd world countries, I personally think it was darn good we got rid of lead solder.

Re: Lead is even deadlier than was feared

#175

Post by jabl »

cjrp wrote: post #165
verelo wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, most small airports only carry one fuel, i imagine those making new planes don’t get customers excited about planes you cannot take everywhere due to limited availability of fuels. I love/hate flying for all these reasons.

Some engines (such as Rotax) can be run on mogas, available at gas stations. Obviously you then need to transport it to the airport yourself, which isn't always convenient.

Doesn't most mogas STC's cover only alcohol-free gas, which AFAIK is increasingly hard to acquire in many places?

It seems that longer term, in many places of the world, particularly outside the US, the answer is diesel aero engines, which can run on jet fuel.

Re: Lead is even deadlier than was feared

#176

Post by jabl »

ethbro wrote: post #173
jabl wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems fatalistic to assume that getting rid of TEL will automatically mean it'll be replaced with something equally nasty, or even worse. I don't think it's out of the question that improvements in refining technology has made it possible and economical enough to create a fuel with a high enough octane rating without resorting to TEL or other metal-organic additives. E.g. the Shell stuff that is being investigated by…

I should moderate my comment a bit. I'm not expecting the replacement to be equally or more toxic, but I have skepticism that it's going to be non-toxic. Presumably you're tangential to the chemical-synthesis industry? It seems like there's a disturbingly low bar for "We found a compound that will do a thing! Okay, as long as it isn't food / a drug / incorporates already banned substances... put it into production!"…

Well, sure it's going to be toxic. Drink enough gasoline and you'll die, whether it's aviation gasoline or not. And aromatics are carcinogenic etc. (then again, aromatics are present in many other fuels such as regular gasoline and kerosine). I think the best one can hope for is that the 100LL replacement won't be significantly nastier than regular car gasoline. But already that would IMHO be a significant step forward compared to the status quo.

And no, I don't work for the chemical industry, or anything related to that really. But yes, I've heard of such cases where the replacement for some banned product turns out to be even worse. I do think one should be very careful about trusting environmental statements by the chemical industry, or any industry for that matter. Just like one shouldn't trust them blindly, I don't think a blanket dismissal of anything new they are doing is warranted either.

Re: Lead is even deadlier than was feared

#177

Post by slavak »

cjrp wrote: post #165
verelo wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, most small airports only carry one fuel, i imagine those making new planes don’t get customers excited about planes you cannot take everywhere due to limited availability of fuels. I love/hate flying for all these reasons.

Some engines (such as Rotax) can be run on mogas, available at gas stations. Obviously you then need to transport it to the airport yourself, which isn't always convenient.

Rotax can run on either MoGas or 100LL, so if you're at an airport that doesn't offer MoGas you can just fill up with AvGas and go.

Re: Lead is even deadlier than was feared

#178

Post by slavak »

ams6110 wrote: post #142
NPMaxwell wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't industries that require high levels of reliability schedule replacement of aging equipment, rather than continued repairs to keep old equipment running?

Not really in aviation. Even commercial airliners are often decades old (and as a passenger, you can't really tell unless you know what to look for). They do reach a point where replacement with newer technology makes economic sense, but they can basically be maintained indefinitely.

That's not entirely accurate. Pressurized aircraft hulls are limited by the total number of pressurization cycles they can be subjected to. Everything else is repaired, overhauled, or replaced, but a total overhaul of an airliner haul is just not economically feasible, so at that point the entire aircraft is basically scrapped.

Re: Lead is even deadlier than was feared

#179

Post by EGreg »

nitrogen wrote: post #151
EGreg wrote: post #96

Are lead lined walls dangerous? I wanted to have a shed basement with lead lines walls to double as a bunker. How does one actually get lead poisoning except thru contamination of water etc.?

Touching the lead and then touching your face, food, or others' hands, breathing dust from the lead, etc. Maybe you can achieve your goals with other materials, like soil, rock, cinder block, etc.

Why would I touch the lead if it's deep in the walls?

Re: Lead is even deadlier than was feared

#180

Post by Doxin »

fencepost wrote: post #170
mixmastamyk wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most electrical cords have it in them as well. Believe stuff from IKEA doesn't though as it meets EU standards.

Look for "RoHS"[1] on labels and electronics. That governs a list of materials, but I suspect the most common is lead. Among other things, this is the origin of significant usage of lead-free solder, which has led to its own set of issues in electronics (brittle joins, tin whiskers, etc). [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restriction_of_Hazardous_Sub...

Lead-free solder has since improved greatly. These days it's pretty hard to discern from leaded tin other than the fact that joints tend to not be glossy.

Especially if you're a hobbyist: Go for lead free solder. it's no worse to work with than leaded but a whole lot less toxic. (Still don't breathe the fumes though, solder flux is nasty stuff)

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