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LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

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Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#171

Post by ino »

jakelazaroff wrote: post #132
mmmBacon wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry but almost all the blame is on the person who pulls the trigger. Swatting is possible because of police militarization. Frankly while the idiot who made the call certainly shares some responsibility, our police policies of shoot first and ask questions later are the problem. When police are trained to respond to citizens, even violent ones, like enemies in war, we get the outcomes of police killings that we hav…

Police militarization makes this man more culpable, not less. He called the police with foreknowledge that doing so would provoke a militarized response likely to end in a death.

murder by cop

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#172

Post by rbetts »

oh_sigh wrote: post #161
alkonaut wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is just one way this isn’t a massive police screwup, and that’s if the person SWATed reacted in a way that was (very) threatening, such as grabbing a gun, or something that is reasonable the police could believe was a gun. My hunch here is that, just like you are suggesting, Swat teams are used incorrectly as first response in unconfirmed situations. No investigation by anyone has confirmed the threat. At the e…

What kind of investigation would you suggest take place before hand about a situation where there is supposedly a person with hostages who has already killed one?

A situation that doesn't include the "supposedly" qualification you make. A single anonymous source on a non-911 number without corroborating reports of gunfire is not sufficient cause to shoot a man on his porch.

Here's an idea -- fly a drone around the house and look in some windows. Knock on a neighbors door and ask if they heard a gunshot. Establish the identity of the reporter - how does the reporter know what is happening? Is the reporter physically proximate to the area?

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#173

Post by 7952 »

meri_dian wrote: post #145
grey-area wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SWAT is usually only involved when it's clear there is an immediate and present danger. That is demonstrably false. For reference, start with this case.

Police were responding, in this case, to a call made by someone claiming to be armed and holding his family hostage. You do not assume a call is fraudulent in a situation like that. You assume the worst. What happened to the civilian is a tragedy. He should not have been killed. But the person most at fault here is the one who lied and called in SWAT in the first place.

The worse outcome is that the innocent bystander is killed. That could be a hostage, or some random person caught up in a hoax. The whole point of the police presence is to protect that person. In this situation they failed in that objective.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#174

Post by CalChris »

username223 wrote: post #147
WhatIsDukkha wrote: post #100

What bothers me about these situations is just the entire idea of "SWAT" as practiced. You are a cop with 5+ other cops. You all pull your guns. Someone comes to the door, groggy in the middle of the night. They may or may not understand you are police. They may or may not believe you are the police. They are definitely confused/frightened/angry by your presence. We now begin the dice rolling process. Since every pol…

> This process is designed to have a weapon be discharged. Unfortunately, as a US civilian you need to be smart about de-escalating encounters with underpaid rage-monster cops with something close to legal immunity. Your goal should be to avoid injury or death until you can get to a lawyer.

I agree with the rest but underpaid, no. For the Oakland Police Department, where I live, the starting salary is $69,912 to $98,088. Retirement starts at 50. This job requires a GED.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#175

Post by ivanhoe »

WhatIsDukkha wrote: post #100

What bothers me about these situations is just the entire idea of "SWAT" as practiced. You are a cop with 5+ other cops. You all pull your guns. Someone comes to the door, groggy in the middle of the night. They may or may not understand you are police. They may or may not believe you are the police. They are definitely confused/frightened/angry by your presence. We now begin the dice rolling process. Since every pol…

They have to approach the situation prepared for the worst case scenario. Problem is that they typically lack the proper training and the discipline required, and act too hastily. There's also a huge problem with the whole that macho, gun loving, power-tripping culture, it just makes things worse, wrong profile of people gets that kind of job.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#176

Post by hinkley »

Silhouette wrote: post #151
meri_dian wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SWAT is usually only involved when it's clear there is an immediate and present danger. So of course they are going to be ready with weapons drawn. Do you want them to just waltz into (probably) dangerous situations with their hands in their pockets whistling a tune? Edit: The amount of willful ignorance displayed on HN regarding law enforcement is staggering. It's sad to see how many people here view police as the b…

It's sad to see how many people here view police as the bad guys Apparently they just killed a totally innocent man, entirely avoidably. In this case, they are the bad guys.

This will not be the first case of questionable use of force people have encountered.

If you think the venom around this case is about this case then you’re going to be confused.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#177

Post by rbetts »

tomschlick wrote: post #153
y7 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> when it's clear there is [...] danger Shouldn't they at least verify for themselves whether there is actual danger?

How? Are you going to send an officer to the door to ask someone if there is a murder going on? This was a bad shoot, but the tactics were sound. Don’t correctly they would have called him out of the house from a distance with lethal cover from multiple angles and then cleared the house.

If sound tactics get innocent people killed when nobody was under actual threat --- those are shitty tactics.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#178

Post by StavrosK »

meri_dian wrote: post #145
grey-area wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SWAT is usually only involved when it's clear there is an immediate and present danger. That is demonstrably false. For reference, start with this case.

Police were responding, in this case, to a call made by someone claiming to be armed and holding his family hostage. You do not assume a call is fraudulent in a situation like that. You assume the worst. What happened to the civilian is a tragedy. He should not have been killed. But the person most at fault here is the one who lied and called in SWAT in the first place.

> But the person most at fault here is the one who lied and called in SWAT in the first place.

It completely mystifies me how people can think that people with guns were justified in fatally shooting someone with no guns. That kind of thing should just never happen, either subdue them or let them get away, why are you shooting them? What could they possibly have done, short of ran to the kitchen to get a knife and then ran back and tried to stab someone? How can you mistake anything someone unarmed does for a deadly threat?

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#179

Post by [deleted] »

Silhouette wrote: post #156
meri_dian wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Police were responding, in this case, to a call made by someone claiming to be armed and holding his family hostage. You do not assume a call is fraudulent in a situation like that. You assume the worst. What happened to the civilian is a tragedy. He should not have been killed. But the person most at fault here is the one who lied and called in SWAT in the first place.

You do not assume a call is fraudulent in a situation like that. You assume the worst. We're talking about literally a life or death situation here. Why on earth would you assume anything, rather than being cautious and trying to confirm for sure what the situation actually is?

[deleted]

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#180

Post by bonzini »

r00fus wrote: post #168
username223 wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This process is designed to have a weapon be discharged. Unfortunately, as a US civilian you need to be smart about de-escalating encounters with underpaid rage-monster cops with something close to legal immunity. Your goal should be to avoid injury or death until you can get to a lawyer.

This was a mistaken address SWAT ing. How was the person supposed to know? Police officers that shoot ppl should be held liable as well as the SWAT caller.

Or is it whoever (edit: in the Wichita police) dispatched them without checking the details of the call, or adequately briefing them that the details were not clear?

Because the guy who shot made a huge and deadly mistake, but the fact that you can call 911 and have someone SWATted is a big problem on its own.

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