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Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

theguardian.com

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Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#171

Post by adventured »

Richs99 wrote: post #156
adventured wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please enlighten as to what would qualify as a wave of crime then, in your opinion. A 600% increase in acid attacks? A 200% increase in gun offenses? A 70% increase in knife crimes?

A 600% increase in what was a tiny number to start with is not a "crime wave"

~500 acid attacks annually in London, growing as rapidly as it has been the last three years, is not a tiny number nor a trivial matter.

London has a lot of knife crime. A 24% increase in such a short amount of time is not a tiny increase in that either.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#172

Post by alkonaut »

dmitriid wrote: post #159
andrenth wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> less handguns = less deaths. This does not follow. Take Brazil for example. 60k homicides per year, and guns are pretty much forbidden. Of course, criminals don’t seem to care.

Take Europe for example. Less homicides than the States, guns are pretty much forbidden (yes, they are all but forbidden in Switzerland, too).

I think the whole relationship with "guns" is completely different. We have tons of "guns", but basically no handguns, very few semiautomatics, and absolutely no military style weapons. (Yes - our laws explicitly say that if a gun is a civilian version of a military model, it is banned. It's a good law).

Most importantly we have strict storage laws (you can't drive around with a gun in your car every day, you can't have a gun in next to your bed etc- you have guns in your gun safe, period).

And the reason behind why all this works is because there is a broad acceptance that a gun is a hunting tool or sports equipment, not a tool for self defense, nor a tool for ensuring that government stays in line (we use pitchforks and cobblestone for that).

Gun laws are both the cause and effect of such a mentality. You can't have strict gun laws in a place where people believe guns are essential for self defense and defense of democracy. And vice versa. For the US to end up with sane (yes) gun laws, the water needs to be slowly heated. Generations of tightened gun laws, amnesties etc. Just starting with a ban on just a few types of weapons + adding safe storage requirements would go a long way.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#173

Post by Nursie »

rmchugh wrote: post #168

In regards to why it hasn't been copied, I have heard that part of the problem is that the UN officially supports the War on Drugs. European countries are reluctant to break ranks with the UN in this matter, while progress at the UN itself is held up by conservative countries such as Iran.

I don't think it's just Iran. I think the UK is firmly on the side of the WoD too.

And yes, the UNGASS is a big part of the problem, it sets the international direction and it only meets every 10 years. When it does meet it puts out a statement, and these statements so far have been utterly silent on any and all harm reduction measures, instead sticking to the old rhetoric about prevention and enforcement.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#174

Post by omnimus »

andrenth wrote: post #150
toomanybeersies wrote: post #50

This scenario doesn't just happen with drug policy, but with practically any divisive policy discussion. People will debate something that is done elsewhere, and ignore completely that it's done elsewhere. Gay marriage is a prime example, as it's something that has been legalised in a lot of countries now. Every time a country goes through the process of debating whether to legalise gay marriage, there's a bunch of p…

> less handguns = less deaths. This does not follow. Take Brazil for example. 60k homicides per year, and guns are pretty much forbidden. Of course, criminals don’t seem to care.

Lol this is exactly what above comment talks about. You are picking the country that fits that narrative but forget about all of the rest.

Brazil compared to US is so poor and with shitty corrupted police. US police prides itself on being the best most sophisticated in the world i dont se a reason why they would have problems doing same job as police in europe. They would have it in fact much easier.

Also the fact that Brazil has gun problems even when guns are prohibited does not mean that it would be better if they were allowed and everyone would carry one. What is this logic wtf.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#175

Post by caio1982 »

rmchugh wrote: post #168

In regards to why it hasn't been copied, I have heard that part of the problem is that the UN officially supports the War on Drugs. European countries are reluctant to break ranks with the UN in this matter, while progress at the UN itself is held up by conservative countries such as Iran.

Saying progress in the UN is held up by Iran and such sounds nonsense to me. The US is also pretty conservative and has way more influence and power inside their buildings.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#176

Post by mnm1 »

freddie_mercury wrote: post #63
bob_theslob646 wrote: post #38

>Portugal’s remarkable recovery, and the fact that it has held steady through several changes in government – including conservative leaders who would have preferred to return to the US-style war on drugs – could not have happened without an enormous cultural shift, and a change in how the country viewed drugs, addiction – and itself. In many ways, the law was merely a reflection of transformations that were already…

The fact that things work differently outside of the US yet most foreign countries still haven't adopted it suggests that none of your purported reasons are the primary cause. They almost certainly are tiny things with very small marginal contributions when countries as varied as Russia, Australia, Sweden, Poland, Singapore, and Switzerland -- who don't have of the factors you mention -- also have failed to follow Po…

US drives UN policy. They may be tiny US issues, but the US makes them giant world issues. The reason none of these countries has adopted a policy like Portugal's is the UN treaties. And the UN treaties exist because the US created them. Even Portugal is skating on thin ice with decriminalization but if they wanted to legalize, they would have difficulties fulfilling their obligations to the UN. In the end, until the US changes the UN treaties, few will ever go against the will of the US. That doesn't mean they don't want to or that they aren't holding back progress on this issue simply to appease the US. They most certainly are.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#177

Post by TheArcane »

ramy_d wrote: post #162
andrenth wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> less handguns = less deaths. This does not follow. Take Brazil for example. 60k homicides per year, and guns are pretty much forbidden. Of course, criminals don’t seem to care.

shockingly true https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Brazil

> this is exactly what above comment talks about. You are picking the country that fits that narrative but forget about all of the rest.

Try Europe.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#178

Post by pjc50 »

adventured wrote: post #124
msg3 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny, I must have missed this massive wave of crime. From the same Guardian article: "The policing minister, Nick Hurd, said that crime, as measured by the crime survey, was down by a third since 2010 and by 69% since its 1995 peak." From the BBC article: Martin Hewitt, assistant commissioner responsible for territorial policing, said: "Similar to the rest of England and Wales, crime rates in London are rising, but…

You don't think a tripling of acid attacks, a 20% increase in violent offenses, a 24% increase in knife attacks, a 42% jump in gun offenses - all in such a short amount of time, amounts to a wave of crime?

The acid attacks seem to have been a consequence of loosening regulations on acid sales: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/government-aci...

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#179

Post by TheArcane »

WalterBright wrote: post #91

It's the sunk cost fallacy. When you've invested enormous amounts of treasure, careers, political capital, conventional wisdom, etc., in having a position, it is very, very hard to say "oops, that's all a big mistake, my bad!" It's much easier to double down on it.

Well it was done before during marijuana legislation.
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