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Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

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Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#171

Post by ahachete »

farresito wrote: post #28
pfortuny wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, well, well, well... You should read the constitution and compare it to what the catalonian establishment is doing. The rule of law applies also to politicians.

If the law goes against one of the principles of democracy, the issue is with the law. What would your opinion be on a constitution that allows slavery? Because that was the case with a lot of constitutions in the past, and I think we would all agree that from a human right's point of view it was wrong. What's going on in Catalonia is illegal, but it's the democratically correct choice, and given what the Spanish gov…

That people has self-determination rights based on allegedly cultural and historic reasons is very weak point, and ignores the rule of law.

But what is more worrisome is that it ignores the rights of the other group. What about the Spanish, not from Catalonia, that have interests in Catalonia, be it companies, properties, families or even just cultural links? Shouldn't they have an opinion on the matter?

Unsurprisingly yes, and that's precisely what the Constitution says. And that's the supreme law, and I have not seen any other reasonable country where a subset of it is claiming so freely to withdraw the Constitution because they don't like it, even when there are very clear paths to change it.

It Catalonia wants to vote, go to Parliament and ask for a referendum of all Spaniards (that's legal). It's that simple.

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#172

Post by e98cuenc »

farresito wrote: post #150
e98cuenc wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what's exactly the principle of democracy that the spanish constitution is violating? The right of a part of a country to secede is not recognized by most constitutions around the world, and it is certainly not a "principle of democracy". You want to change the constitution that rules your country, you get 2/3 of the votes of the parliament behind your vote and the constitution changes (or whatever rule your cons…

I'm referring to the right of self-determination. It might not fall under one of the principles of democracy (my apologies), but it's certainly a basic right ( http://www.unpo.org/article/4957 ) The Spanish constitution won't change because it's in their best interest to not do so, which is why this illegal referendum is being created. If they wanted the Estatut to pass, they would have passed; they didn't pass it be…

It is not "certainly" a basic right. Some countries accept it, others do not.

As for the cultural, language and historical I see absolutely no basis for this referendum. Cultural wise I have never, ever, see the slightless difference between catalonians and people for the rest of Spain. What will be the difference between someone that lives in Tarragona and someone from Valencia? Of course it's all a smooth change, and the farther away you go the more small changes you get, but I have seen much deeper differences between people living in cities vs rural areas (even when they are close to each other).

In any case, these differences are (to me) smaller than the differences between a New Yorker and a Texan.

Historically Catalonia has never been a separate, independent country, and you have to go pretty far away to get a substantially different Spain to what you have today.

Catalonia has a different language, that roughly 60% of their inhabitants do not speak, and that is shared by some of the inhabitants of the spanish states (Comunidad Valenciana and Balears).

If your point is that Catalonia people should be allowed to secede because they have a differenciate culture / language (let's ignore for a second all the catalans that do not speak catalan), why don't they call to vote in catalonia, comunidad valenciana and balears, all together? Because they will very clearly lose the vote.

In polls there are a huge number of catalans descendants from andalusia n "inmigrants" that are also for the independence. Why is it so? Because the reason argued again and again during years has been only one: taxes. Not "culture".

BTW, they wanted the Estatut to pass (it passed in congress), but you needed more than 1/2 the votes, you needed 2/3. If the Estatut had nothing against the Constitution, it will be law by now.

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#173

Post by notspanishflu »

kiliancs wrote: post #154
notspanishflu wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hard to try to explain the true here when secessionists are brigading but you aren't serious, really. Since 1977, Catalans had participated in 35 free elections, and in 3 referendums. The Catalans have their own government, and there are politicians born in Catalonia successfully in the Spanish Parliament, and in the European Parliament. Where you don't see freedom? If someone wants to change the Spanish Constit…

Catalans will never amount to the number of votes you need to start such a change. This position amounts to prohibiting the exercise of the right to self-determination all peoples have.

The so-called "right to self-determination" doesn't exist in the Spanish Constitution, nor in the International Law, nor in Comparative Law.

https://elpais.com/elpais/2014/10/10/opinion/1412946101_9911...

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#174

Post by tbatchelli »

notspanishflu wrote: post #107
tbatchelli wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That constitution was written and signed under Military watch. Let's not forget Franco, a genocidal dictator, died of old age while still in power, he was not ousted by democratic forces. And no one ever went to jail for the dictatorship. Many in power during the dictatorship remained in power for a long time after it "ended". The current constitution is a reflection of that time, where Spain was a nascent democracy…

This is completely false. The Spanish Constitution was an agreement between every party, including the Communist Party (PCE). And Spanish people supported the Constitution with their vote on a large scale.

Did I say it wasn’t voted by a majority?

EDIT: I should reword my question. What part of it you believe is false? Or is it all of it?

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#175

Post by notspanishflu »

farresito wrote: post #162
notspanishflu wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not an impartial source. Anyway, when that site states "All peoples have the right to self-determination" Is there a minimum number of people to aim for 'this right'? V.g. if 259 persons in Els Hostalets de Balenya say the want 'the right to self-determination', are they a nation from then?

I answered this same question in another comment. Copy pasting: As to when you stop with the right of self-determination, in the case of Catalonia, from a cultural, language, and historical point of view, there's enough reasons for a referendum to be held (given the discontent of the population). There's a similar situation with Quebec, for example. As far as I know, there's nothing about New York --language, history…

Responding a copypasta with another copypasta:

The so-called "right to self-determination" doesn't exist in the Spanish Constitution, nor in the International Law, nor in Comparative Law.

https://elpais.com/elpais/2014/10/10/opinion/1412946101_9911...

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#176

Post by monodeldiablo »

notspanishflu wrote: post #168
monodeldiablo wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no better way to change his vote to a definite "yes" than by refusing to allow him to voice his opinion. If Madrid listened half as well as it sneered, I suspect they'd have better relations with all their immediate neighbors.

Man, the obsession with 'Madrid'! I think all Spaniards have a voice in this.

If your wife wants to divorce you, do you think she should require your permission first?

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#177

Post by gfiorav »

monodeldiablo wrote: post #165
gfiorav wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How I’m I saying that? I don’t even mention fascism. I’m saying that representative parliament works, and there’s a way to solve this using this worldwide system. Direct democracy is not what we have, America’s founders considered it “anarchy” as a matter of fact. Read up.

America's founders also considered slaves fractional people and women incapable of voting. They happened to be right about some things, but they were still wrong about other things.

Yeah, they also called indigenous people “savages”. Back in those days stuff like that was still not clear. However, when creating the constitution, they put a lot of thought on the system it should follow. Like I said: direct democracy is a tried and tested method. It has failed for the same reason always.

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#178

Post by icebraining »

notspanishflu wrote: post #161
icebraining wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is that even a single guy changes his opinion. It's not reasonable to present it as representative of a full system of government. Go ask Rajoy if his opinions represent the whole system :) EDIT: Also, those quotes just show that the iconoclast and rebellions attitude of Catalonia against the central government is quite old, and not just an invention of some corrupt politicians to divert attention :)

One thing doesn't rule out the other. Also 80 years is a lot or not.

Well, that's just one case, there are older ones: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_revolt

Pau Claris, head of the Generalitat of Catalonia, called the politician members of the all Principality in order to form a Junta de Braços or Braços Generals (General Estates), a consultive body. (...) This assembly, which worked with individual voting, began to create and apply various revolutionary measures (...), while the tension with the monarchy grew.

Echoes of the past :)

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#179

Post by pvaldes »

kiliancs wrote: post #154
notspanishflu wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hard to try to explain the true here when secessionists are brigading but you aren't serious, really. Since 1977, Catalans had participated in 35 free elections, and in 3 referendums. The Catalans have their own government, and there are politicians born in Catalonia successfully in the Spanish Parliament, and in the European Parliament. Where you don't see freedom? If someone wants to change the Spanish Constit…

Catalans will never amount to the number of votes you need to start such a change. This position amounts to prohibiting the exercise of the right to self-determination all peoples have.

Perfect, as everybody can say anything for the "right" of this new thing, the "self-determination all people have" I require you to free the oppressed people of Ohio, quit the area right now, and anexionate the state to, for example, France. And if you do not agree to do what I want then I will shout loud that "this is not a democracy and all of you are nasty fascists". Happy?

Yes, is exactly like that.

Last year the catalan goverment spent 5 millions euro (stolen) from taxes of all spaniards in a similar "referendum" show. Money used against the interests of the same people that give it. Instead to pay schools and hospitals they bought cardboard urns, candies and fireworks and make a wonderful theater full of passion, and drama. Do we understand the meaning of the term "diversion of public founds and prevarication"?

This year trying the same dirty trick again and take the freedom that all spaniards have by law to decide about their country.

And of course they are the "victims" in a world that do not understand their uniqueness and fantasy extravaganza.

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#180

Post by gfiorav »

Oletros wrote: post #143
gfiorav wrote: post #24

I know it’s hard to not take parts with the “oppressed” but: You must know that this referendum was approved without reading the bill in the Catalonian parliament, so the opposition couldn’t even have a say. Even the vicepresident of the chamber stepped out of line since it was so outrageously un-democratic. The people leading this movement in Catalonia (very much like the central government) is riddled with corrupti…

> In short: please be skeptical about whatever you hear from either side. There’s an estimated 40-45% of support for the vote and less than that (30-40%) support for independence Do you have sources, because the last I know is from El Periodico (against independence) and the amount of people supporting a referendum was almost 80%

I follow the numbers closely... it’s always coming from CIS.

It seems to have risin after the attacks.

http://www.elmundo.es/cataluna/2017/07/21/5971c7f7468aebd53d...

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