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VW engineering executive sentenced to 40-month prison term in diesel case

reuters.com

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Re: VW engineering executive sentenced to 40-month prison term in diesel case

#171

Post by elgenie »

alkonaut wrote: post #120
bitmapbrother wrote: post #103

I was watching a german program on the VW scandal and was surprised to learn that the German government allowed VW to issue a software patch to correct the problem instead of offering to repair or compensate owners for the cars they purchased. Even with the software patch the vehicles still released emissions that were well above the norm. Also, I don't believe any VW executives have ever been charged in Germany.

I was also very curious how they managed to get my '09 "fixed" somehow via a simple software patch. I would have understood it if it had lost 20% performance or got 20% higher fuel consumption - but that didn't happen. So: if it was that easy to fix legally why did they cheat in the first place?? Of course it can't be that easy. So of course my car is still polluting over the limit. And I think this is a story that i…

It totally can be that easy, though. Imagine the software in the car has the following pseudo-code…

    if (emissions_test_running()) {
       run_efficiently();
    } else {
       business_as_usual();
    }
… which could get replaced with …

    run_efficiently();

Re: VW engineering executive sentenced to 40-month prison term in diesel case

#172

Post by Tomte »

okreallywtf wrote: post #97
rurban wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but will the executives involved be held to the same legal standard Yes, they will, but Germany will not extradite them. They already made that clear. And it is very unlikely that the german court system will prosecute them. Haven't heard anything yet, because this might inflict the politicians who backed this Diesel emission testing system for decades. They didn't even go to the technical root yet. Only one made t…

Why will they not, do they fear they will not get a fair trial in the US or will be punished worse than their crimes dictate?

Our constitution forbids extradition of citizens to foreign countries.

There's an exception for other member states of the European Union, but that's it.

Re: VW engineering executive sentenced to 40-month prison term in diesel case

#173

Post by azinman2 »

simonbarker87 wrote: post #167
azinman2 wrote: post #157

So purposefully modifying cars to illegally pollute to huge levels, causing deaths and disease from said pollution gets a few years in prison? The range of time people are charged with is so arbitrary and usually inconsequential with mass scale “white collar” crimes, and totally excessive for the poor and/or minorities. It’s insane.

> causing deaths and disease from said pollution Has that been proven? Serious question, I've not kept up with the ins and outs of the case. UPDATE: I should clarify, I mean specifically the increased pollution these VWs created not just pollution in general.

It seems reasonable to extrapolate given it’s 40x over the limit and we already know pollution kills (both directly as a toxin and indirectly through climate change).

Re: VW engineering executive sentenced to 40-month prison term in diesel case

#174

Post by alkonaut »

elgenie wrote: post #171
alkonaut wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was also very curious how they managed to get my '09 "fixed" somehow via a simple software patch. I would have understood it if it had lost 20% performance or got 20% higher fuel consumption - but that didn't happen. So: if it was that easy to fix legally why did they cheat in the first place?? Of course it can't be that easy. So of course my car is still polluting over the limit. And I think this is a story that i…

It totally can be that easy, though. Imagine the software in the car has the following pseudo-code… if (emissions_test_running()) { run_efficiently(); } else { business_as_usual(); } … which could get replaced with … run_efficiently();

No, you have that backward a bit: the NOx emissions are high when the car runs efficiently (high compression/temperature)

So you can make the engine run at high temp, do 5L/100km and output 200hp, but with lots of NOx produced

Or you can run it cooler, with less NOx produced, but then it does 6L/100km and ouputs 175hp (say)

So basically the bad code was

    if (under test)
       run_cool_inefficient_lowNOx
    else
       run_hot_efficient_highNOx
The reason why many diesel manufacturers cheated is because the numbers for diesels are only good if you run hot. All that low consumption, high power etc comes from its ability to run hot, but then it spews NOx.

This was made worse by EU regulations that focused 100% on CO2 - which is proportional to consumption only.

In order to sell cars in the EU they needed models that stayed under 120g/km CO2 (say 5L/100km) and of course they couldn't be lower power than the competition, and to stay under price limits for company purchases they needed models that stayed under the price limit where they could fit AdBlue systems

Re: VW engineering executive sentenced to 40-month prison term in diesel case

#175

Post by dom0 »

simonh wrote: post #160
dsfyu404ed wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. If we weren't on a forum filled with mostly people from CA who take for granted things like byzantine HOA rules and intrusive bylaws we'd be questioning why emissions requirements made "screw it, we're cheating on this one" a defensible decision for anyone at VW. You shouldn't have to break the law to be competitive.

How many other car manufacturers broke the law in this way? We're none of the ones that didn't competitive? What a patently ridiculous argument.

Last time I checked all tested diesel cars displayed anomalies between their supposed emissions and their actual emissions. So at this point: Likely all car makers.

And while this hasn't been public knowledge, it is not that surprising, because it has been public knowledge how much the mileage tests are gamed, so it's not surprising that all other tests are gamed as well (and, specifically, using defeat devices is also illegal).

Re: VW engineering executive sentenced to 40-month prison term in diesel case

#176

Post by leipert »

rurban wrote: post #165
leipert wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe because the Volkswagen AG employs 0.6 million people worldwide, 220 thousand of them in Germany?

If the Volkswagen AG would be the only culprit. So far it looks like Audi persuaded Bosch to add the cheat detection code into it's ECU used in almost every Diesel car, and consequently almost every car was using it. The scandal is much bigger than VW.

FYI: Audi is part of the VW AG.

Re: VW engineering executive sentenced to 40-month prison term in diesel case

#177

Post by PhasmaFelis »

LoSboccacc wrote: post #168
PhasmaFelis wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you kidding? $3.6 million is enough to retire and live comfortably for the rest of your life.

You think money is all that is for a comfortable life?

Of course not, but "having a job" isn't on that list. There's a whole world of hobbies, movies, books, people, and conversations that you'd be free to explore to your heart's content. If you want to build things, go right ahead, on your own terms and whenever you feel like it. Why on earth would you miss being required to sit in an office 40 hours a week?

Re: VW engineering executive sentenced to 40-month prison term in diesel case

#178

Post by bcrack »

simonbarker87 wrote: post #167
azinman2 wrote: post #157

So purposefully modifying cars to illegally pollute to huge levels, causing deaths and disease from said pollution gets a few years in prison? The range of time people are charged with is so arbitrary and usually inconsequential with mass scale “white collar” crimes, and totally excessive for the poor and/or minorities. It’s insane.

> causing deaths and disease from said pollution Has that been proven? Serious question, I've not kept up with the ins and outs of the case. UPDATE: I should clarify, I mean specifically the increased pollution these VWs created not just pollution in general.

http://news.mit.edu/2017/volkswagen-emissions-premature-deat...

Re: VW engineering executive sentenced to 40-month prison term in diesel case

#179

Post by sitkack »

NegativeLatency wrote: post #170
dubyah wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Rolling coal" remains an illegal modification, practiced by scofflaws. TÜVs are not immune to conflicts of interests.[0] And while generally not a separate sticker from annual car registrations, annual or biennial emissions testings are carried out by most states.[1] >any sudden punishment of violators from outside reeks of market protection. Perhaps it's because the EU lacks the authority of the member states to re…

Most states emissions testing requirements are not stringent. Having lived in Washington, Oregon, and California I can say that WA's and OR's tests don't do much.

This "hack" by VW should have been caught in weeks by the EPA. It was detected simply by driving the car around with a sensor in the tailpipe.

And yes, when emissions testing switched to relying on the OBD codes, all was lost. Even I thought about hacking the ECU to report "all good"

Re: VW engineering executive sentenced to 40-month prison term in diesel case

#180

Post by [deleted] »

azinman2 wrote: post #157

So purposefully modifying cars to illegally pollute to huge levels, causing deaths and disease from said pollution gets a few years in prison? The range of time people are charged with is so arbitrary and usually inconsequential with mass scale “white collar” crimes, and totally excessive for the poor and/or minorities. It’s insane.

[deleted]
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