A man wouldn’t leave an overbooked United flight, so he was dragged off • Hacker News Board

Re: A man wouldn’t leave an overbooked United flight, so he was dragged off

#171

Post by username223 » Mon, Apr 10, 2017, 5:12 PM UTC

whitepoplar wrote: post #20

rhino369 wrote: post #8

The outrage mob is pushing this pretty hard. Booting people off a plane is pretty shitty behavior for an airline. It's bad customer service and they should dealt with it earlier than after boarding. But if they have to do it, the passenger shouldn't be allowed to just refuse. This guy did. And he had to get dragged off the plane. I don't really see an alternative other than just letting anyone willing to scream to st…

I think you're wrong. They should have upped their monetary incentive until someone left voluntarily. It was their business fuckup, not the passenger's, and they should pay for it.

This. Chicago to Louisville is a 300-mile drive. Someone would surely have been willing to get off the plane in exchange for $1k and either a rental car, or a hotel for the night. I still enjoy flying itself, but everything around it, from "security" rent-a-cops fondling you and stealing your toothepaste, to airline employees treating you like cattle, makes me dread having to fly somewhere.

Re: A man wouldn’t leave an overbooked United flight, so he was dragged off

#172

Post by AdamJacobMuller » Mon, Apr 10, 2017, 5:12 PM UTC

KaoruAoiShiho wrote: post #152

67726e wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what do you do when someone refuses to leave? I'm on the doctor's side, United should not overbook a plane and bump a customer to get their own people on board, but when someone refuses to leave what other options do you have? Taze him and drag him off? You'll have to use force to remove someone.

Raise the offer from $800, which is a low amount for an airline overbooking.

Reverse auction.

Ok, we're offering $10,000 to anyone who gets off.

I see twenty hands and we only need four.

How about $8,000, ok, down to 19 hands.

10 minutes later, and they probably would have ended up paying LESS than $800/seat.

Re: A man wouldn’t leave an overbooked United flight, so he was dragged off

#173

Post by chapium » Mon, Apr 10, 2017, 5:12 PM UTC

inputcoffee wrote: post #75

rhino369 wrote: post #8

The outrage mob is pushing this pretty hard. Booting people off a plane is pretty shitty behavior for an airline. It's bad customer service and they should dealt with it earlier than after boarding. But if they have to do it, the passenger shouldn't be allowed to just refuse. This guy did. And he had to get dragged off the plane. I don't really see an alternative other than just letting anyone willing to scream to st…

I think physical violence is qualitatively different. Consider: suppose a kid lays across your driveway and refuses to budge. Are you allowed to drive over the kid? After all, if everyone starts doing this, you will lose your job and can't feed your own family, right? Well, no. You have to figure out a way. Take a deep breath and call their parents, get an Uber or whatever it takes. The situation would be different i…

I get your point, but being this hyperbolic is not supporting your case.

Re: A man wouldn’t leave an overbooked United flight, so he was dragged off

#174

Post by lightbyte » Mon, Apr 10, 2017, 5:13 PM UTC

Flammy wrote: post #54

bello wrote: post #21

They messed up and overbooked the flight, sure. But why on earth would they forcefully drag people out of the plane, while they could just find volunteers? They could offer cash/miles to whoever volunteered, increasing the offer until someone accepted. I've seen other airlines do this on several occasions. They couldn't have handled it worse than they did.

> They messed up and overbooked the flight, sure. To be clear, every flight is overbooked. The airlines have run the numbers, and it is clearly more profitable to sell (for example) 105% of the plane, and then if more than 100% show up, pay people off to take a different flight.

That's a horrible reason in my opinion. What other industry could get away with doing this? If someone sold 105% capacity for a concert or sports game and just told the last 5% who arrived "sorry, no more room" people would be extremely upset.

Re: A man wouldn’t leave an overbooked United flight, so he was dragged off

#175

Post by MattSteelblade » Mon, Apr 10, 2017, 5:13 PM UTC

manacit wrote: post #119

MattSteelblade wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From my understanding, you're correct. Deny Boarding can be avoided by checking in early. These people had boarded and the plane was full before the mistake was realized. EDIT: Still unsure as to the legality of this. IDB is well established, but the fact that everyone has boarded is a different matter. Reading the contract of carriage did not bring any more light to this point. And let's be clear, denying someone an…

I believe your understanding is incorrect - someone can be denied boarding regardless of when they have checked into the flight. If there are 100 seats, they may sell 105 tickets and permit 105 people to check in - if they cannot find 5 volunteers they will have to IDB 5 passengers. While the rules aren't printed very well (I just scanned United's Contract of Carriage, and the Federal Code), I believe it counts as an…

For reference, section 25 of their contract of carriage: https://www.united.com/web/en-US/content/contract-of-carriag...

Re: A man wouldn’t leave an overbooked United flight, so he was dragged off

#176

Post by douche » Mon, Apr 10, 2017, 5:13 PM UTC

raverbashing wrote: post #133

btian wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They made offers - 1) $400 2) $800 3 and final) Leave the airplane or we'll beat the shit out of you. Glad I made the decision to not fly United 4 years ago.

They don't even need to offer more money. Offer $1000 and two free return tickets to anywhere in the US, or miles. I find it hard to believe no one volunteered, even for a small amount, unless they were already delayed

When they do this, it's usually a shittier offer than it sounds. They're not offering cash, but value in tickets, which has an expiration a short time in the future, and can only be applied to certain flights.

It'd be interesting to see statistics on how often these offers are even redeemed.

Re: A man wouldn’t leave an overbooked United flight, so he was dragged off

#177

Post by _red » Mon, Apr 10, 2017, 5:13 PM UTC

manacit wrote: post #6

Someone on a different message board put this situation very well: By the letter of the law, United was correct - morally, they were not. Their 'contract of carriage' allows them to IDB (Involuntary Deny Boarding) to passengers due to overselling, and bump people off at-will. Depending on how delayed the passenger would be to their final destination, they would owe compensation (up to a max of $1350) for the trouble.…

A couple of points:

1. You are correct that is what they CoC states, however its not like this is really a free market (ie. the customer didn't really have a choice but to accept those terms). United, and all commercial airlines, effectively have a monopoly license. So, it wasn't really a free and open market that produced those CoC terms.

2. As sign of the "bad faith" of United's contract, the reverse situation is not permitted. That is, a customer who chooses not to fly at the last minute doesn't get to reschedule - and in many cases will simply forfeit his money. So, on one end of this contract a government monopoly can kick you off a flight via force based on whim (breaking the implied contract that they were going to service you), but on the other end the customer either has no other competitor choice nor has any recourse once they've handed over their money.

Re: A man wouldn’t leave an overbooked United flight, so he was dragged off

#178

Post by johnnyo » Mon, Apr 10, 2017, 5:13 PM UTC

panzagl wrote: post #120

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are they legally required to offer before they can just pick people?

If they pick someone they are entitled to 4 x ticket capped at $1350.

Which is why they "randomly" pick the people who paid the least for their ticket.

Re: A man wouldn’t leave an overbooked United flight, so he was dragged off

#179

Post by jessaustin » Mon, Apr 10, 2017, 5:13 PM UTC

mintplant wrote: post #69

jessaustin wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The plane was full before all the United employees showed up? Yeah they should have gotten there sooner, but in previous situations when I knew the plane would wait on me I've been the last to board...

I don't think that answers lamby's question. Surely they know how many of their own employees will be flying ahead of time?

Do uniformed airline employees get tickets? I've seen them board without producing tickets. They don't have to wait in line either. United might just have decided that it's easier to trust the discretion of its employees than to figure out ahead of time who's going where, when, especially since that could change constantly based on numerous factors.

Re: A man wouldn’t leave an overbooked United flight, so he was dragged off

#180

Post by pbiggar » Mon, Apr 10, 2017, 5:13 PM UTC

rdtsc wrote: post #149

vwcx wrote: post #101

The real thing to fear here is the normalization of violence. Good perspective in the WP comments: "The truly shocking thing here is that violence - with the real possibility of serious injury - was viewed as appropriate in a situation that was purely logistical. The airline wanted seats for its own employees. This was not an emergency - such as a terrorist attack or a drunk passenger endangering people. The lack of…

I think United were wrong here (maybe not legally) but morally and, even from their self-interest they took a major PR hit. People involved in this should be getting termination letters immediately. However, I am curious. Once they made the decision to remove him. How could they have done so if he didn't want to move? A taser?

Revisited the decision to remove him.