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The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

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Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#171

Post by lovich »

agalarza wrote: post #93
austenallred wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I graduated high school in 2008 and dropped out of college a few years later. I can honestly say not one person (other than my parents) ever recommended considering cost until after my Freshman year of college. The message that was pounded in again and again and again was "The best college at all costs." I'm pretty sure that's no longer the case - at least I hope so.

Sorry if this is too personal, but did you think your parents were blowing hot air or something? This thread has been eye-opening from the perspective of all these comments who (apparently) had negligible guidance from a group of people (parents) who absolutely need to talk about debt to their kids. Maybe a silver lining in this topic is a generation of future parents who will have better conversations with their kid…

Did no one else have boomer parents who refused to talk about finances, even when asked point blank? Mine said it wasn't something you discussed with your children, and that was a common viewpoint where I grew up.

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#172

Post by RUG3Y »

stinkytaco wrote: post #133
RUG3Y wrote: post #126

This is a bit tangential to the conversation, but relevant: I have an art degree. I was pushed into getting any degree. I'm a part of that same generation that was told to go to college at all costs, even if you don't know what you want to do with yourself. Fast forward 11 years, and I've just finally paid my student loans off. Now I'm in this situation: I'm not doing a whole lot with art, and I'm trying to break int…

Freelance? Start contributing to OS projects and consult? I mean, if you're trying to break in without existing credentials or work product, I would have to think you'd need to create some work product and connections.

I have some creds + experience but I'm looking to get more. I haven't cracked freelancing yet. Places like Odesk seem like a mess and I haven't had good results.

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#173

Post by randomdata »

maxxxxx wrote: post #160
randomdata wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Growing up on the farm, I had more than a decade of workplace experience, marketable skills, and exposure to life lessons like learning how to learn by the age of 18. In fact, I started my current career when I was 17. To just start thinking about those things after the age of 18 is difficult to imagine. What I wonder is why we find it acceptable – desirable even – to shield children under the age of 18 from the real…

I think they shouldn't be sheltered from learning but we also shouldn't rub it in when they make a mistake. With the high cost of college I would argue making mistakes has become much more expensive than it used to be.

I agree, but it is funny you say that because I (and I imagine many others who didn't go to college) received my fair share of having people drive home the point that I was going to be a failure in life. How I was making the mistake. I knew better, but still, having to listen to it constantly through my younger years was not exactly a pleasant experience. I distinctly remember a few well intentioned lectures about how I needed a degree to get a good job, even though I was making a six figure income while they were telling me that! In hindsight it is kind of funny, but being flat out told you did it wrong, as you point out here, is still not a nice feeling no matter how you slice it.

> With the high cost of college I would argue making mistakes has become much more expensive than it used to be.

I don't know. The biggest cost of college is still, far and away, the time cost. I don't think that is getting any more expensive in the average case. A degree still roughly takes about the same amount of time as it always has. Other associated costs have definitely risen, but are a drop in the bucket compared to the total cost.

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#174

Post by BeetleB »

Retric wrote: post #130
pc86 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$100k in Iowa will go a lot farther than $200k in San Francisco, and if you can get $200k in SF you can almost certainly get a similar job making $100k (or more) in rural Iowa. Now, if you don't want to do that because "gross, it's Iowa" and NYC or SF is objectively a more enjoyable environment for a 20-something single software developer, that's fine. But that's a choice and at that point you're simply deciding to l…

If I can save X dollars per year in San Francisco then I need to be able to save X dollars per year in Iowa not just live similar lifestyles on less money. Because savings has ZERO cost of living adjustments. Further, Social Security has zero cost of living adjustments so if your making less than the cap that has long term consequences. If your saving 15% at 200k that's 30% at 100k for the same net savings. While a 1…

>If I can save X dollars per year in San Francisco then I need to be able to save X dollars per year in Iowa not just live similar lifestyles on less money.

Agreed, and I think that is what people are saying. Also, do make sure you do an apples to apples comparison. In the Midwest, I may pay $1500/mo to live in a 2500 sq ft house (and less with all the tax credits related to interest/real estate). Compare the same cost for a 2500 sq ft house you are buying in SF. I generally see people comparing the 2500 sq ft house in Iowa with the 1300 sq ft apartment in SF, which is not a fair comparison.

Also, consider the age of the house.

How much per month would a 2500 sq ft house built after 2000 in the Bay Area cost you in mortgage + taxes?

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#175

Post by maxxxxx »

randomdata wrote: post #173
maxxxxx wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think they shouldn't be sheltered from learning but we also shouldn't rub it in when they make a mistake. With the high cost of college I would argue making mistakes has become much more expensive than it used to be.

I agree, but it is funny you say that because I (and I imagine many others who didn't go to college) received my fair share of having people drive home the point that I was going to be a failure in life. How I was making the mistake. I knew better, but still, having to listen to it constantly through my younger years was not exactly a pleasant experience. I distinctly remember a few well intentioned lectures about ho…

"I don't know. The biggest cost of college is still, far and away, the time cost. I don't think that is getting any more expensive in the average case. A degree still roughly takes about the same amount of time as it always has. Other associated costs have definitely risen, but are a drop in the bucket compared to the total cost."

From what I hear from my young coworkers they often owe 40k after two years of college. If you realize then that you took the wrong major switching is difficult with that debt load. That is, unless you have a rich dad...

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#176

Post by BeetleB »

epalmer wrote: post #120
ryandrake wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The thing that irks me about this the most is how it's the people who were doing exactly what they were told that got hurt the most. The good kids who went to the best school they could get in to, studied whatever they were interested in, and if that thing happened to be literature or women's studies or a wide number of other things you might just spend the next 20 years figuring out how to live with debt you can't…

This makes me sad and mad. I work at a small liberal arts university in IT and they are still telling the students to take whatever Arts and Sciences major. The school I work at does limit student debt and is a needs based school (they provide a lot of debt free aid in the form of grants), so that is good. But still majoring in the classics or art (especially from a school not known for art), art history and art mana…

>If you can't major in a science, CS or engineering then major in business.

When I was in school, people had the most contempt for business majors.

The engineering people got respect for the technical difficulty of what they did.

The liberal arts folks got respect for the intellectual pursuit.

When we would look at a business major, all we would see was style with no substance. Almost all their education was geared towards appearances. When my undergrad forced all business undergrads to own laptops, the reason was "No one will take you seriously without one". A business professor told me that when students give presentations, he never listens to the content. His feedback is entirely about appearance (suitable clothes, appropriate voice, sexy presentation, etc).

As far as actual content goes, you could more easily learn it all on your own than you could for, say, software or programming (since that is a concern in this thread somewhere).

The primary utility of the business degree is:

1. Learn to look good.

2. Join a somewhat exclusive club.

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#177

Post by lovich »

uiri wrote: post #17
austenallred wrote: post #12

The thing that irks me about this the most is how it's the people who were doing exactly what they were told that got hurt the most. The good kids who went to the best school they could get in to, studied whatever they were interested in, and if that thing happened to be literature or women's studies or a wide number of other things you might just spend the next 20 years figuring out how to live with debt you can't p…

How is "did exactly what they were told" different from "did not think for themselves" ? Any kind of large decision demands a cost-benefit analysis, including opportunity costs, time value of money, etc. The labour market does not change that much in 4-5 years (barring something like the 08-09 financial meltdown). It should be straightforward to check whether a degree is necessary in order to land a decent job - appl…

Society and the state have decided that people this young can't think for themselves. We already have stuff like drinking laws which say you cant handle alcohol till youre 21, but here please decide the course of your life and if you want to get into 10's of thousands of dollars of debt right now. We also tie Fafsa money to your parents with little recourse to do anything if they don't decide to help you out. Society expecting 18 year olds to follow these rules, but also be responsible and critical thinking adults is just being hypocritical

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#178

Post by BeetleB »

giardini wrote: post #127
chestervonwinch wrote: post #43

> debt significantly hurts your chances of buying a home 60k in the hole still from undergrad loans. The thought of taking out a mortage after this debt is finished is not appealing. "hurts my chances"? Sure, that's one way to put it.

It may not be to your advantage to buy a home. Once you do, you're tied forever to the local economy. Ofttimes once many people move to an area and buy homes at artificially-inflated prices, the local economy tanks and everyone is stuck with their overpriced home. Look at the people in cities (in Montana, North Dakota, West Texas) caught up in the fracking boom - they're stuck with thousands of overpriced homes now.…

>Ofttimes once many people move to an area and buy homes at artificially-inflated prices, the local economy tanks and everyone is stuck with their overpriced home.

At other times, a city grows so fast and rents go up so much in a few years that a house shields you from it.

I bought my house "late" (i.e. when prices were on an increasing curve). Less than 3 years later, too many 2 bedroom apartments charge more for rent than my much bigger house. If I were to sell now, I'd make a profit, even after you account for real estate fees, etc.

Obviously, my case is not the norm. But neither is your scenario.

>https://www.google.com/search?q=buying+a+home+is+not+worth+i....

Oh, please! The first rule of Google searching is: Do not ask it to return what you are looking for!

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#179

Post by randomdata »

maxxxxx wrote: post #175
randomdata wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, but it is funny you say that because I (and I imagine many others who didn't go to college) received my fair share of having people drive home the point that I was going to be a failure in life. How I was making the mistake. I knew better, but still, having to listen to it constantly through my younger years was not exactly a pleasant experience. I distinctly remember a few well intentioned lectures about ho…

"I don't know. The biggest cost of college is still, far and away, the time cost. I don't think that is getting any more expensive in the average case. A degree still roughly takes about the same amount of time as it always has. Other associated costs have definitely risen, but are a drop in the bucket compared to the total cost." From what I hear from my young coworkers they often owe 40k after two years of college.…

Exactly. The lack of full time income for two years is a sizeable expense. Instead of being $40k in the hole after two years, they could have had $40k in the bank. At an average 5% rate of return, that is almost $300,000 after 40 years. That is loss of about $7,500 per year until retirement simply by spending time in school instead of at work for two years. You don't even need to get into tuition and other costs.

It was once promised that getting a degree would increase your job income by more than that $7,500 (or whatever number fits the situation). But incomes have been stagnant for 40+ years, with no sign of that changing. Without rising incomes, incomes simply aren't rising to compensate for the growing postsecondary educated populace.

Re: The Lasting Consequences of Student Debt

#180

Post by xiphias »

soverance wrote: post #143
austenallred wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I graduated high school in 2008 and dropped out of college a few years later. I can honestly say not one person (other than my parents) ever recommended considering cost until after my Freshman year of college. The message that was pounded in again and again and again was "The best college at all costs." I'm pretty sure that's no longer the case - at least I hope so.

Don't feel bad, this exact same situation happened to me. I wanted to make a change in my life, and build a better future for myself. Everyone I spoke to said that going to college would be a great idea - there was no way the investment would not be worth it. My parents, my coworkers, my friends, and of course the advisors at my school - they all said it would be worth it. Not a single contradiction throughout countl…

I know this doesn't sound that good, but if you learn programming, 25k + 2 years is nothing. All of us have made bigger mistakes in our lives (though not the same) by listening to other people.

Now $250k, that's a lot of debt even for a programmer.

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