Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups • Hacker News Board

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#171

Post by psyc » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 4:11 PM UTC

phd514 wrote: post #156

krschultz wrote: post #7

If you are a startup and are trying to compete head to head with Google / FB / Amazon / Apple / Microsoft for the same people, you are going to have a really hard time recruiting. But there are plenty of great engineers that don't want to work at those companies for various reasons. There are plenty of great engineers that want to work remotely and don't have that option at the large companies. There are also plenty…

Since when does remote mean a lower salary? I work remotely in the US and I expect (and receive) a market rate salary that's not based on my location. Offering me a lower salary because I've chosen to live in a lower cost-of-living city will ensure that I don't consider working for you. It's not always an employee's market, but while it is, I intend to take full advantage of it.

There's no reason it ought to mean a lower salary. However, I would very happily work at half-price for a fully remote job I actually want. But even with that concession, the vast majority of companies I'd like to work for still don't offer the option.

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#172

Post by sshrinivasan » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 4:12 PM UTC

phd514 wrote: post #156

krschultz wrote: post #7

If you are a startup and are trying to compete head to head with Google / FB / Amazon / Apple / Microsoft for the same people, you are going to have a really hard time recruiting. But there are plenty of great engineers that don't want to work at those companies for various reasons. There are plenty of great engineers that want to work remotely and don't have that option at the large companies. There are also plenty…

Since when does remote mean a lower salary? I work remotely in the US and I expect (and receive) a market rate salary that's not based on my location. Offering me a lower salary because I've chosen to live in a lower cost-of-living city will ensure that I don't consider working for you. It's not always an employee's market, but while it is, I intend to take full advantage of it.

I don't think you understood what he said. He was saying that one of the attractions of a startup, which couldn't pay the $350k salary like Google, was that remote work would be possible, and some developers would like that flexibility. He wasn't claiming that startups pay remote workers less than in house ones.

In my experience that is an incorrect argument to begin with: many large tech companies seem to have more flexible work hours and remote working capabilities just like startups. I would rather focus on work-life balance, working on products that matter, having equity in the company, being able to experiment with technologies and be part of the decision making process rather than a cog in the machinery as reasons to prefer a start-up.

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#173

Post by amzukthrowaway » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 4:17 PM UTC

likpok wrote: post #36

hashkb wrote: post #8

I don't think the average engineer with 5 years of experience makes 250k; not even in the top 10%. And startups DO pay that much, it's just reserved for powerful exec hires. Just pay more if you want the best engineers. Asking for a world where top talent works for less money is stupid.

The average engineer at google with 5 years of experience makes at least 250K. To put it bluntly: I'm pretty sure the average cash compensation (that is, disregarding RSUs entirely, which is likely at least another 100k/yr) is going to push 200K. The same is substantially true of the main competitors to Google (Amazon, Facebook, Microsoft).

The Amazon salary for a senior software engineer (amazon L6) in London is 86K GBP cash plus stock that varies on when you joined. After L6 almost everyone goes into management or leaves.

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#174

Post by pm90 » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 4:18 PM UTC

ryanpepper wrote: post #148

pm90 wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have a PhD AND 20 years of job experience, I am sorry to say you are doing something really wrong if your base salary has not crossed the six figure mark. Maybe companies in the UK don't pay as much as those in the US; I wouldn't know. If that is the case though, I would suggest that you work in the US for a few years and maybe move back and try to negotiate a better offer. Having EU/UK citizenship makes it mu…

The starting salary for a new graduate in the UK is probably in the range of £25-£33k, unless you're really lucky and do something like investment banking which is about half of what comparably qualified grads make in the US. On the other hand, there are additional things that are paid for because of various legal differences between the the UK and the US (such as paid maternity leave, paid sick leave, and employers…

We do have a paid maternity and sick leave in the US (well, at least in the tech companies. In my current company (IBM), we even have paid paternity leave). How expensive is the National Insurance tax? I can't imagine it being much more expensive than what my company pays for health insurance for its employees (although perhaps I'm wrong here).

> The starting salary for a new graduate in the UK is probably in the range of £25-£33k,

Are you talking about starting developer salary? That seems really really low! Why wouldn't UK devs simply relocate to the US where they could make a lot more right away?

Apologies, I don't mean to pontificate...it just befuddles me why a UK developer wouldn't want to move, if only for a little while.

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#175

Post by mathattack » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 4:19 PM UTC

The idea that VC-funded startups should pay the same cash salaries as big companies is a sign of hot markets. It happened in 1999 as well. In reality, startups should pay less because they give equity, allow more freedom and creation, and have less stupid corporate rules. It's not for everyone, but that's the tradeoff.

Generally when you're borrowing from VCs who expect a 30-50% return on their equity, it's a bad idea to pay too much cash. (It's like paying salaries on a credit card - the lender may be willing, but they still want to get paid back) When it does become equal, it's a sign of froth. To get the benefits of a startup without any downside runs up against, "There's no such thing as a free lunch."

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#176

Post by jonnathanson » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 4:21 PM UTC

phil21 wrote: post #85

AlexC04 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ugghh... this exactly. I recently turned down a "we will fly you to the west coast" interview with one of the big five because I couldn't be bear the idea of spending weeks preparing for the 4-8 hour day of whiteboard coding (only to not get selected anyways). Spent the time hanging out with my girlfriend instead. Worth every minute.

I think you almost played this right, with one caveat. You should have taken the flight to the west coast and done the interview, with minimal (hour or two) to no prep at all. Why? First, you never know. Maybe they legitimately want your skillset - why fake up some crap you hate for a job you don't need? Second, you'll get practice taking interviews in a very low pressure situation. Worst-case they laugh at you and y…

I think the worst case is a little hairier than that.

Companies keep records of their applicants and interview feedback. I'm dramatically oversimplifying, but your feedback will spell out two things in isolation: your fit for the role you applied for, and your fit for the company in general. If you do badly enough not to clear that second hurdle, you're going to have a hard time getting future interviews at the company.

So I wouldn't recommend winging it in a Big 5 interview unless you're comfortable with the possibility that a bad performance might blackball you there. But hey, some folks are fine with that risk. Others are confident enough that they feel their seat-of-the-pants performance will still clear the basic hurdles. If that's you, then more power to you.

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#177

Post by brilliantcode » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 4:24 PM UTC

There's no way six digit salaries are going to be sustainable in the near future. This kind of money is possible because of low interest capital going around but when the rates inevitably rise and capital dries up, it's going to be hard for companies to pay someone $350,000 USD /year doing the work someone in Vancouver, BC can do for $100,000 CAD /year.

I recall during the dot com bubble people justified a six digit figure for knowing HTML.

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#178

Post by etergri » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 4:25 PM UTC

phd514 wrote: post #156

krschultz wrote: post #7

If you are a startup and are trying to compete head to head with Google / FB / Amazon / Apple / Microsoft for the same people, you are going to have a really hard time recruiting. But there are plenty of great engineers that don't want to work at those companies for various reasons. There are plenty of great engineers that want to work remotely and don't have that option at the large companies. There are also plenty…

Since when does remote mean a lower salary? I work remotely in the US and I expect (and receive) a market rate salary that's not based on my location. Offering me a lower salary because I've chosen to live in a lower cost-of-living city will ensure that I don't consider working for you. It's not always an employee's market, but while it is, I intend to take full advantage of it.

I wish I lived in a country which allowed that logic at all..

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#179

Post by Sunstruck » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 4:26 PM UTC

throwaway2016a wrote: post #145

holydude wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"We had someone come in interviewing for a senior that I would place as a mid (generously...)" Exactly. Do not be so cocky. This is free market and while you are entitled to your opinion why should a candidate try too hard to get a position that pays less than half of what he will get elsewhere just because his skills are not up to your standards ? You cannot really assess my skills in an interview the same way I can…

Don't be so quick to judge. Placing someone at mid / senior / junior is not "cocky"... it's pretty subjective if you do it right. The guy missed questions that over 50% of our applicants knew the answers to. I'm not talking the "implement this obscure algorithm from scratch on a whiteboard" kind of question HN is so fond of. The hardest coding question we ask is Fizz-Buzz. But we can't / won't pay him more than we pa…

It sounds like you don't pay market salaries and are in denial

Re: Big Tech Company Salaries Are Hurting Startups

#180

Post by mathattack » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 4:26 PM UTC

throwaway2016a wrote: post #21

I work at a startup that isn't profitable yet so our salaries are very low... - Our typical junior makes $50 - 60k - A typical mid makes $65 - 75k - Seniors (including CTO) make $90 - 110k In greater Boston. It is VERY difficult to hire at those rates. We had someone come in interviewing for a senior that I would place as a mid (generously...) and he accepted another offer for $150k. At our scale he would be making $…

We need to hire the people who the Googles of the world won't hire and train and mentor them

Very true. If you're willing to take a risk on someone smart who majored in Cognitive Psychology but is interested in programming, you don't have to pay them anywhere near Google salaries. But you do need to train and mentor them, and give them respect.