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The thriving black market of John Deere tractor hacking

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171–180 of 185 posts

Re: The thriving black market of John Deere tractor hacking

#171
post #6

How is this practice even legal? Could auto manafuctirers do the same thing? I'm sure they discourage aftermarket programming and whatnot, but using DRM to prevent DIY repairs is bringing things to a whole new level.

My dad is a mechanical engineer who loves cars. I spent my youth listening to him lamenting the fact that modern cara have too many electronics and DIY protections. That you can't even make an oil change without also notifying the computer, the interface for which is proprietary and only sold to licensed dealers, or the car would refuse to run because it would think its oil is bad. He reminisced about the good old da…

>That you can't even make an oil change without also notifying the computer, the interface for which is proprietary and only sold to licensed dealers, or the car would refuse to run because it would think its oil is bad.

Honestly I'm really sick of hearing idiotic stories like this. You need to demand that he tell you exactly what car is like this (basically, "citation needed").

My 2015 Mazda is the easiest car to change oil that I've ever seen. There's a service panel on the bottom of the car that comes open with two screws, and inside is the drain bolt and the filter right next to it (hanging down, so it won't pour oil all over when you unscrew the filter). It really couldn't be any easier. Drain the oil, replace the filter, replace the crush-washer on the drain bolt and put it back on at ~35 lb-ft, pour more oil in the fill hole on top of the engine. Then, on the infotainment system, you just navigate to the "maintenance" section where the oil-change reminder is, select "Reset" and you're done. The system even has flexible oil change intervals and will tell you when to change it based on your driving habits; mine lets me go 7500-10000 miles between changes.

This canard about "proprietary interfaces only sold to licensed dealers" is either total bullshit, or is only on certain (likely high-end luxury) cars that are easy to avoid.

(Edit: to be fair there is some of this for certain things and certain cars. But it doesn't exist as far as I've seen for basic maintenance tasks, it just seems to be something created in the minds of old people and passed around as rumor until it became accepted as truth. One example of something that really is like this I've heard of is some high-end cars with electrically-adjustable suspensions, requiring a special dealer-only service tool to calibrate it in case of repairs. But you're not going to see this on a $20K Honda any time soon; regular cars these days still have the same ol' completely mechanical MacPherson strut suspensions they've had for ages.)

>He reminisced about the good old days when all you needed was a wrench and a hammer and you could fix anything on a car.

That's bullshit too. Cars have always needed all kinds of specialized tools. Disc brake spreaders, steering wheel pullers, spark plug gap tools, feeler gauges, torque wrenches (try replacing a con-rod without one and see how long your engine lasts), cylinder hones, I could go on and on.

Re: The thriving black market of John Deere tractor hacking

#172
post #138

How likely are the right to repair laws to pass? I'm not familiar with the GOP's stance on this issue

Just as a guess, not at all likely. The GOP has always been a big-business friendly party, and anti-little-guy. They manage to get the "little guys" to vote for them by spouting socially conservative and religious rhetoric, which rural, conservative people just love, so they're perfectly happy to vote against their own economic interests for this.

In a nutshell, if the GOP came out and said, in all seriousness, "Vote for us and we'll ban abortion, let religious people discriminate against gays, and eliminate gun laws, but in return we're going to make you all dirt-poor serfs who have to work in company towns and when you get sick, we're just going to let you die", they would still get almost all the votes they get now.

Re: The thriving black market of John Deere tractor hacking

#174

The installation of black-market Ukrainian firmware is a potential infosec nightmare. Imagine what a tempting target this would be for Russian intelligence services to backdoor! In the event of open conflict with the United States, they could potentially paralyze a large portion of US agricultural capacity.

Seems like this would require these tractors to have internet connections. Otherwise it wouldn't help much to put a poison pill like this in there because you'd have no way to either activate it at an opportune time, or to not activate it if you don't want to resort to such measures at the current time.

Re: The thriving black market of John Deere tractor hacking

#175
post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Farmers can really help, because everyone knows we depend on them for our food, so anything that messes with them, messes with all of us. Really? Because I'm perfectly happy getting my produce from Mexico and my rice from Thailand instead of American farmers. Farmers as a group feed the planet, but American farmers we don't need at all.

>Farmers as a group feed the planet, but American farmers we don't need at all. Until something happens to knock out the supply chain for a while, then we're fucked.

Given that most Americans don't subsist on domestically produced foods, we're fucked without that supply chain anyway.

Re: The thriving black market of John Deere tractor hacking

#176
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that simple. A corollary is with cellphone firmware for the radio. They have to answer to the FCC. Updating the firmware will let you broadcast with more wattage, for example. FCC doesn't like that. JD has to answer to the EPA. See Tier IV.

Automakers have to answer to the EPA too. That doesn't stop regular joes from changing their own oil in their garage and buying parts at Autozone. Most cars are not designed to make it impossible for car owners to do regular maintenance or simple repair jobs themselves.

Doing so would actually be illegal for the Automakers, who tried similar things in the early days of the Auto Industry and several laws and regulations were passed to protect consumers for Highway vehicles

It is highly unlikely this will work out very well for JD.

Re: The thriving black market of John Deere tractor hacking

#177
post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Automakers have to answer to the EPA too. That doesn't stop regular joes from changing their own oil in their garage and buying parts at Autozone. Most cars are not designed to make it impossible for car owners to do regular maintenance or simple repair jobs themselves.

Doing so would actually be illegal for the Automakers, who tried similar things in the early days of the Auto Industry and several laws and regulations were passed to protect consumers for Highway vehicles It is highly unlikely this will work out very well for JD.

Yeah, it's called the Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act of 1975. It doesn't just apply to cars though, it applies to everything, including farm equipment.

Re: The thriving black market of John Deere tractor hacking

#178
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Methane leaks. In the US, so much of it leaks that it's a greater source of ghg than cows and manure, if I recall.

If half of his pig-manure methane leaks away, it's still a win for the environment, as otherwise 100% of it would have leaked.

Well, he is using an anaerobic bioreactor I believe, so not sure what the exact conversion figures or alternative aerobic products would be. (The methane he extracts vs equivalent farm decomposition)

Re: The thriving black market of John Deere tractor hacking

#179
post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doing so would actually be illegal for the Automakers, who tried similar things in the early days of the Auto Industry and several laws and regulations were passed to protect consumers for Highway vehicles It is highly unlikely this will work out very well for JD.

Yeah, it's called the Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act of 1975. It doesn't just apply to cars though, it applies to everything, including farm equipment.

That was one, but not the only Regulation passed as a result

Things like ODBII Regulations, which do only Apply to Highyway Vehicles, and all of the regulations that come out of the USDOT for Highway rated Vehicles.

Re: The thriving black market of John Deere tractor hacking

#180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't mean to imply that it was in some way non-standard or state-of-the-art; only that they do, in fact, manufacture some of their electronics in-house.

I don't see any evidence there that they manufacture semiconductors, only electronics. Manufacturing electronics isn't that hard, depending on what exactly you're doing. Assembling printed circuit boards from components is something you can even do by hand in most cases, and automated assembly equipment isn't really that expensive to set up a small factory, depending on the volume required (small-volume stuff isn't t…

Fair enough, I probably misspoke.
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