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Elon Musk is boring a tunnel to skirt gridlock

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171–180 of 278 posts

Re: Elon Musk is boring a tunnel to skirt gridlock

#171

Ok, so one thing I've noticed reading the 120 comments in this thread and the article is that literally nobody knows anything about boring, or tunnels. Musk knows nothing, he put someone in charge who knows nothing, the reporter knows nothing, and the commenters here even admit they are completely guessing and know nothing about boring/tunnels. I definitely don't know anything about tunnels. It's a joke that came to…

> - Has there been any improvement in boring in the last 50 years? The frequently-repeated statement that it hasn't improved would be quite shocking to me since at the very least I'd expect safety to improve.

New Austrian tunnelling method, although that's on the very edge of 50 years ago. Since then, I imagine there's been incremental improvements that aren't easily understood by people who don't work on TBMs (just like steam locomotives didn't really have any revolutionary technologies after Stephenson's Rocket, even though they clearly improved in the next 100 years).

> What are the maintenance costs of tunnels like as compared to surface roads?

More expensive, I imagine. You have more infrastructure to maintain. In addition to the road surface, you have to inspect and maintain the tunnel lining, ventilation, and drainage systems. Given that two of those are active systems, I doubt there's any real savings over the lesser deterioration from weather.

> What are the big costs in the industry? The article hinted that Musk picked up a boring machine for 90% off $15MM, or $1.5MM, which seems extremely cheap given that even small size tunnels in urban areas can cost more than one -billion- US dollars per mile.

TBMs are usually purpose-built. I suspect Musk's "cheap" boring machine is him picking one up after it's completed its project and no one has any use for it.

> - Is there enough boreable space under our cities that this is doable? I know Musk says he wants to go deep, but even at very deep depths you run into problems of sand, boulders, geography, etc, etc.

Most of the buried stuff in our cities are relatively shallow. After around 10-20 feet of depth, you can basically assume nonexistence of municipal utilities, which means the only obstacles are others trying to avoid such things. The real problem in geometry is trying to maintain egress and ingress capabilities, as well as maintaining maximum grades internally. Don't forget that you'll need emergency access tunnels and ventilation shafts for long tunnels (and, usually, if it's not long, it's not deep).

Re: Elon Musk is boring a tunnel to skirt gridlock

#172
post #43

I've become completely disenchanted with Elon Musk over time. I used to be a huge fan and cheerleader, and enthusiastically pointed to him as inspiration. But slowly I started to realize that I was buying a lot into carefully crafted propaganda. The way SpaceX used lawyers to keep PSLV at bay, all the while Musk gassed on about free markets and competition made me a bit mad. Then he had that quip where he said he was…

> I've become completely disenchanted with Elon Musk over time. There's your problem: being enchanted in the first place. The tech world likes to build these epic hagiographies of people who never asked for them and then huff when reality—inevitably—fails to keep up with the myth. Flawed human accomplishes great things is the story of most of history's pioneers.

This is a good point, however...

> The tech world likes to build these epic hagiographies of people who never asked for them

This is not true. These people, by the very nature of their positions as chiefs of well-known organizations, have to maintain near untarnished super-human public perceptions (at least to the people that support their organization/company/ideals). They ask for it by accepting the position in the first place. You don't think Elon has a PR team?

It's good advice to not let one's self to become enchanted with these sort of figures, but don't act surprised when other people fall for it. All those people wouldn't have their jobs if it wasn't effective.

Re: Elon Musk is boring a tunnel to skirt gridlock

#173
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Talking about underground transport, Musk, and potentially truck driver industry metamorphosis... I had this vision of underground transport network, but not for people, just for things. It would have extremely simple, rail like or stupidly easy to Computer Vision track the lanes for big wagons of stuff. It would make streets for human mobility 80% with occasional trucks and we could have automated Network of Things…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Tunnel_Company

Yes, but an interpolis version.

Re: Elon Musk is boring a tunnel to skirt gridlock

#174
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, so what we need to do is take into account value of space that roads will take up (that could otherwise be used for houses, businesses, parks...), and only build more roads if the value they produce outweighs the value they consume. That's not an induced demand issue though.

I would say that's a pretty clear example of induced demand and the problems arising from it. You build the motorway, people build low density suburbs outside the city to drive and take the motorway to commute into the centre, that delivers hundreds of thousands of cars into the centre which crashes the road-space efficiency of the central area, which damages not just the people driving into the centre, but also the…

[deleted]

Re: Elon Musk is boring a tunnel to skirt gridlock

#175
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure eminent domain remains legally powerful. But politically it has become more of a hot button issue in certain conservative circles who actively lobby against its use. And when eminent domain is used the takers have to pay fair market price so with the huge increase in urban real estate values over the past few years it's much harder to just find the money.

Given its frequency of use and the fact that since Kelo it can be used to the benefit of private businesses, I'd say it is very much politically powerful as well as legally powerful. You don't think the decisions to remove people from their homes, which people to remove from their homes, and the price they should be paid for this major disruption to their lives is already a massively political issue? The poorest amon…

Yes I think it's already a massively political issue. But there are more powerful and vocal people focusing on eminent domain for ideological reasons after Kelo. Before that it was easier to take advantage of poor property owners and kind of slide things through under the radar.

Re: Elon Musk is boring a tunnel to skirt gridlock

#176
post #2

I thought the current thinking was that building more roads means that there will be more roads to use, and therefore more cars on the road. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_demand

If Musk had talked with any expert in transportation at all he'd know that building a tunnel highway won't solve traffic problems in the long term.

Either: A) He hasn't talked with any experts at all. B) He doesn't believe the experts. or C) He doesn't think inducing demand is a problem because he owns a car company.

None of these possibilities are very good looks.

Re: Elon Musk is boring a tunnel to skirt gridlock

#177
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

s/earth/dirt/ ;)

I think it'll be neat to continue to use the word "earth" as a quaint anachronism in some long distant future. A great opportunity to explain to kids that humanity was once limited to a single astronomical body... (The optimist in me is leaking out.)

When I was a child and learned the name of our planet was Earth, I was extremely disappointed. How could we possible name our own planet after something as boring as 'dirt'?

Re: Elon Musk is boring a tunnel to skirt gridlock

#178

Ok, so one thing I've noticed reading the 120 comments in this thread and the article is that literally nobody knows anything about boring, or tunnels. Musk knows nothing, he put someone in charge who knows nothing, the reporter knows nothing, and the commenters here even admit they are completely guessing and know nothing about boring/tunnels. I definitely don't know anything about tunnels. It's a joke that came to…

I'm not surprised that people who design boring machines or design tunnels are not regular readers or commentators here on HN :-). Like Musk, I've felt that tunneling is under utilized (unfortunately I don't have the resources he has to bring to bear on it) but there is a wealth of information out there on the current state of tunneling. Three interesting projects that have a number of 'explainers' and various papers out there are the Channel Tunnel (the 'Chunnel'), the Gotthard Base tunnel in Switzerland, and the Seattle Alaskan Way Viaduct.

These three provide a useful survey level of understanding of the elements of building tunnels, the challenges to be met, and to some extent what is possible today.

Seattle is particularly instructive with regard to the impact on existing buildings vs depth and the challenges of fixing a tunneler mid-bore as it were. The Chunnel provides some great experience on depth and the ability to withstand pressure, and the Gotthard tunnel went through everything from sand to bedrock and speaks well to the ways of mitigating different materials. Taking the time to read the material on those three projects can certainly make you feel like you understand some of the issues.

Musk is correct in that there are a lot of things that are "well known" now by various engineering firms. For example producing pre-stressed wall sections so that a boring machine can leave behind tunnel instead of an unfinished hole. The process of supplying material and removing it, the build as you go narrow gauge rail lines for moving the tunneler and the material, and mitigation factors for different kinds of material (from rock to sand). There are practical considerations that aren't technological. For example you need ventilation. And that means a vent shaft to the surface periodically, and that means negotiating with people above the tunnel for access for that. Getting in and out of the tunnel is also its own challenge. If you want to let people drive their own cars in a tunnel you need a way to get in and get out, if you put a bus or a train in the tunnel you need stations where people can board. Those kinds of things, which involve negotiation with people who might not share, and might even resent, your vision seems to be the "hard" problem to the idea.

Re: Elon Musk is boring a tunnel to skirt gridlock

#179
post #29

I bet all Elon Musk admirers will start hating him because he is getting along with Trump.

Hating? No. But certainly disappointed and disillusioned.

With ethno-supremacist folks like Bannon and Miller having such high-level spots in the administration, and their executive orders targeting legal residents and immigrants based on nothing other than xenophobic and racist world-vews, folks like Elon can't expect not to get mud on their reputation when they help legitimatize the Trump administration's actions.

Re: Elon Musk is boring a tunnel to skirt gridlock

#180
post #26

This is just a wild guess, but could there be more to it than just solving traffic problems? I mean, the best solution for a permanent settlement on Mars would be underground, as to shield from radiation etc. It's a funny thought, but it would make sense to aquire experience with large earth-moving operations to improve on the technology and study the feasibility.

It's just a cover for his actual Bond villain goal of building some ICBM silos.
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