How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance • Hacker News Board

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#171

Post by pm90 » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 4:10 PM UTC

mcguire wrote: post #120

karmelapple wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Limiting the number of student visas will limit the amount of income for universities, though, so it will be fought at the institutional level. If someone has spent multiple years - especially their undergrad AND graduate years - in the USA, and they are interested in permanent residence, why would we tell that person to leave? If that person can select a job just like a US citizen without fear of getting deported, t…

Even if it's not a tech job?

I guess this is a personal opinion, and I definetly do have a skin in the game being an immigrant, but I do sincerely believe that studying in an American university is kind of a life changing experience (it was for me!). Its not like everyone who comes here wants to live here: a lot of my friends went back, mostly because they like to be near their families, like to live amid their own culture. So if someone does decide to stay here, it does mean a certain amount of commitment and sacrifice. Studying and living in the US is kind of like a trial run: some people like it and others don't. So for those who do, who are well educated, willing to contribute to the American economy and society, it feels like a shame to kick them out.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#172

Post by karshan » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 4:11 PM UTC

hungrygs wrote: post #28

The general direction of the Trump plan regarding H-1b is the way to go. The lottery needs to be replaced with a demand system where the highest salaries get slots. A floor of $100,000/yr should exist and adjust for inflation. Next, generously expand the green card fast track, as this category of employee, as an immigrant, is a free agent to move among companies or to start their own business. To date, as we all know…

I think, not refunding the application fee in the event of a denial might be a better solution. It acts as a rate-limit, disincentivising Indian companies from applying for many H1B's.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#173

Post by jacquesm » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 4:11 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #157

jacquesm wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've yet to hear of a country structurally not honoring visa once they were issued. I've traveled pretty much where-ever I could go and once a visa was obtained it was never recalled. Now, I'm a 'well behaved white guy' (or so you might think) from a 'good' country (never mind the slavery, the rape, the pillage, the piracy, exploitation and murder) so that probably skews the odds of this not happening decidedly in my…

I agree that this is a really dumb idea. I oppose it completely. I'm just disagreeing with the very specific "breach of contract" claim. I have heard of the US refusing entry to people with visas. I know someone this happened to, in fact. But since Trump (or other similar villain) wasn't the president at the time, no one really cared.

> I have heard of the US refusing entry to people with visas. I know someone this happened to, in fact.

That's along the lines of if something happens to one person it is a tragedy but if it happens to a lot of people it is statistics.

The numbers are now high enough that it has become a statistic, and one worth noticing. It also draws attention because the list of 7 countries could easily be expanded (on a twitter inspired whim no less).

It's the capriciousness and the uncertainty coupled with the numbers that make it an item, not because it is Trump or someone else at the helm, if Obama would have done this it would have resulted in much the same level of pushback.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#174

Post by throwaway729 » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 4:11 PM UTC

testUser69 wrote: post #88

Americas "tech dominance" threatens the breadbasket. The coastal areas, mostly certain cities, have become "international" and any worker from a rural area who wants to earn a living wage doing a technical job (e.g. STEM) now not only has to compete with other Americans, but everyone in the world. What exactly do the elites expect people in the breadbasket to do? If America is an international country then we're goin…

This "rural communities don't need tech" narrative is tiring and false.

"Tech" is more than Google. How many engineers do you think John Deere hires? How many scientists does Monsanto have on staff? How many lines of code go into the average modern factory?

If I had a dime for every time I talk to a farmer/laborer who plants fields full of GM crops and/or harvests those fields with impressive machinery, and then insists that "tech" is a useless industry. Or CNC mechanics who insist "tech" is a fad. Talk about cognitive dissonance.

Rural america needs tech more than ever before. They'll learn to leverage tech built in coastal cities, or they'll become so irrelevant that not even high tariffs can save them.

> is if for every immigrant a tech company imports, they must hire two rural American workers from a community that's average income is less than the national median.

I came from rural America. So do lots of software engineers in coastal and especially non-coastal cities. There's nothing stopping those people from getting an education and joining a big tech company. Literally. Nothing.

Seriously. Even in poor rural communities without high school CS courses, you can sit your ass down at a computer, learn to code, then fill out college applications.

The one exception is maybe lack of access to higher education. And the GOP is an odd choice if that's your primary problem...

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#175

Post by refurb » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 4:11 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #101

yummyfajitas wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not a breach of contract. A visa is not a guarantee of entry even though many people assume it is. [Edit: Please don't interpret my comment as suggesting I think this is a good idea. If you check my posting history, you'll discover I'm an outspoken proponent of open borders.]

I've yet to hear of a country structurally not honoring visa once they were issued. I've traveled pretty much where-ever I could go and once a visa was obtained it was never recalled. Now, I'm a 'well behaved white guy' (or so you might think) from a 'good' country (never mind the slavery, the rape, the pillage, the piracy, exploitation and murder) so that probably skews the odds of this not happening decidedly in my…

I've yet to hear of a country structurally not honoring visa once they were issued.

Maybe I'm being presumptuous, but do you have a Western passport? If so, that buys you a lot of goodwill when it comes to entering a country.

People with passports from developing countries often have a hell of a time getting into the US, even with a visa.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#176

Post by EduardoBautista » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 4:13 PM UTC

dekhn wrote: post #32

losvedir wrote: post #11

Hm, maybe. It's always been uncertain, though. I know plenty of international students when I was at MIT who weren't sure how the visa situation would play out and if they'd have to go back home or what. I'm a little hopeful that the discussed H1-B reforms may actually help countries obtain particularly niche talents more than the outsource-lottery played now. But I think the real threat to our tech dominance is priv…

If you think US owns the cloud, you're not paying attention to China. China owns China's cloud. The US has little to no visibility into these fleets, but they're huge (multiple million-server farms) and they have tons of national customers. This development is politically interesting. National clouds are now a strategic interest. The EU is basically far, far behind in their internal development of national clouds.

I would never risk hosting something in China's cloud fearing that they will shut down my servers to make room for a Chinese competitor.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#177

Post by refurb » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 4:14 PM UTC

mataug wrote: post #112

I prefer the points system that many countries, including Canada, implement. Its a lot more deterministic and clear whether a person will be admitted or not instead of a lottery or salary based system.

It also has drawbacks. You get residency in a country, but can't find a job. I remember reading a number of stories about Canadian immigrants in that situation.

The US employment visa system ensures a job is waiting for any immigrants.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#178

Post by unprepare » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 4:15 PM UTC

cortuso wrote: post #73

cpursley wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would not invite H1B on that position, I would get one from local market for that amount of money Are you suggesting that a $130k floor for H1B workers would undermine the practice of undercutting local workers?

It's hard to predict what will really happen. Some businesses will hire more IT personal overseas, to amortize the costs and avoid H1B application at all. Some will start really searching for a local talent with higher price (that's what this idea is meant to do I guess). But considering that IT reports constantly shortage on candidates, a big gap indeed, regardless top notch universities, makes me think it's not abo…

anytime you hear "shortage of candidates"

you need to append "at the wage we are offering"

at 1 million per year, do you think there would still be a shortage? how about 500k?

Salaries are so bad in IT compared to development that I decided a couple months ago to start making the transition. I cant reasonably continue pursuing a career trajectory that i know will make me less money, and that is not valued by organizations.

add to this the demands for IT jobs:

certifications (costs hundreds of dollars per, need to refresh them every year or two)

experience with laundry lists of technologies (i.e cisco networking experience is apparently not valid if this employer uses juniper/pfsense/etc.)

probably the worst hours in the industry (yes devs get pagerduty, its not comparable)

compare that to:

literally no certification requirements (dont even need a high school diploma for many places)

much better hours

add to that substantially better pay, and its a real wonder why there is a 'shortage of candidates'

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#179

Post by coredog64 » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 4:15 PM UTC

mywittyname wrote: post #109

anton_tarasenko wrote: post #76

The tone of tech companies does not resonate with the electorate. The Bay Area basically says to America: We have foreigners here who founded some companies and got rich, so we don't want your visa restrictions. How do tech executives motivate the average American to support this stance? Taxes? IT companies and their owners enjoy a very friendly tax treatment. Jobs? The largest IT companies employ only 20-60k people…

Keep hammering the fact that these people are job producers, not consumers. If you can prove that one skilled H1B results in additional two jobs being created in the region, then it becomes an easier pill to swallow. I work in a rural region with a high number of H1Bs because one of the biggest companies in the area is a tech giant. Most people I've talked to (outside of tech) realize that these people bring in a lot…

And as a counterpoint to your anecdata, I've worked with H1B co-workers whose only redeeming quality was the ability to provide CO2 for the plants in the office. They were net-negative contributors.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#180

Post by pgodzin » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 4:15 PM UTC

Retric wrote: post #139

542458 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you want to hire, say, an interpreter of a specific foreign language to work on a community in rural Alabama temporarily, a $100,000 minimum wage would be absurd. Wow, that's a really important point. I'm so in the tech-news bubble that I'd never heard anybody say that before - thanks for pointing that out!

I disagree. If you are not willing to pay 100k then finding someone is not the problem. You just don't want to pay market rates. The point of H-1B is when salary is not the problem. PS: Remember, someone on an H-1B can leave your employment. Paying market rates is supposed to keep that from happening, thus the intent is to remove a shortage not lower pay.

It seems in that case market rate is a lot lower for that role. Just not a lot of Americans to fill it.