How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance • Hacker News Board

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#91

Post by jacquesm » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 3:27 PM UTC

anton_tarasenko wrote: post #76

The tone of tech companies does not resonate with the electorate. The Bay Area basically says to America: We have foreigners here who founded some companies and got rich, so we don't want your visa restrictions. How do tech executives motivate the average American to support this stance? Taxes? IT companies and their owners enjoy a very friendly tax treatment. Jobs? The largest IT companies employ only 20-60k people…

It may not be the desired tone but essentially that's how America got populated in the first place, a place where foreigners with some disadvantage in their country of origin could get rich. And many did.

Kicking the door behind you closed once you've got yours or because you're afraid new immigrants will take your job is hypocrisy of a terrible kind for a nation that was founded on immigration.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#92

Post by devmunchies » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 3:28 PM UTC

cortuso wrote: post #50

hungrygs wrote: post #28

The general direction of the Trump plan regarding H-1b is the way to go. The lottery needs to be replaced with a demand system where the highest salaries get slots. A floor of $100,000/yr should exist and adjust for inflation. Next, generously expand the green card fast track, as this category of employee, as an immigrant, is a free agent to move among companies or to start their own business. To date, as we all know…

I think it's $130K, which is 2x as much as before. It's senior level salary in IT (and I think for lawyers and MD's it's not starting salary either), in some cases/states Principal level. I would not invite H1B on that position, I would get one from local market for that amount of money. If you follow the line: it simply says do not use H1B more. Plus, what international student will do once he completes the college,…

> There is no a notion of "nation" in USA, there is no such thing

Yeah ok, buddy. Try that line when you don't wanna pay taxes.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#93

Post by pcarolan » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 3:28 PM UTC

hungrygs wrote: post #28

The general direction of the Trump plan regarding H-1b is the way to go. The lottery needs to be replaced with a demand system where the highest salaries get slots. A floor of $100,000/yr should exist and adjust for inflation. Next, generously expand the green card fast track, as this category of employee, as an immigrant, is a free agent to move among companies or to start their own business. To date, as we all know…

How much would this system get gamed? This could just turn into a Visa store for elites.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#94

Post by bendmorris » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 3:29 PM UTC

sidlls wrote: post #80

whatever_dude wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The H1B as it is has many problems, but a big salary floor is not the way to go in my opinion. Remember H1B is not just for tech workers. If you want to hire, say, an interpreter of a specific foreign language to work on a community in rural Alabama temporarily, a $100,000 minimum wage would be absurd. They instead need to go after the companies that learned to game the system. I'm not sure what the solution is here.…

Why would that be absurd? A highly specialized skill in an area that we can infer is generally less desirable to live should command a higher than average wage. Much higher if the situation is so desperate that a foreign worker has to be sought. Also: the majority (by far) of H1-B visas are for technology work. It may not technically be "tech only" but in practice it may as well be.

>an area that we can infer is generally less desirable to live

Lower cost of living does not mean the area is undesirable to live. Building adequate housing supply (I know, unheard of in the Bay, but some cities do it) can cause cost of living to stay low.

A major weakness of this policy is that it doesn't scale by regional median salary. Under exigency a company in SF could easily pay $130k to bring in a foreign worker with a needed rare skill. A company in Alabama could not.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#95

Post by LeifCarrotson » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 3:29 PM UTC

edge17 wrote: post #74

542458 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you want to hire, say, an interpreter of a specific foreign language to work on a community in rural Alabama temporarily, a $100,000 minimum wage would be absurd. Wow, that's a really important point. I'm so in the tech-news bubble that I'd never heard anybody say that before - thanks for pointing that out!

http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2017-H1B-Visa-Category.asp...

Wow. I knew the H1B category was biased towards large companies, but I didn't realize it was so bad.

The first cultural, linguistic, or otherwise geographically-constrained job in the list is #84, "Foreign Language And Literature Teachers." "Interpreters and Translators" is down at #131, with a grand total of 268 applicants - practically a rounding error after 300,000 tech applicants. Whatever_dude's example seems so appropriate, that it's shocking to see it so far down the list.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#96

Post by mdorazio » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 3:29 PM UTC

amykhar wrote: post #77

hungrygs wrote: post #28

The general direction of the Trump plan regarding H-1b is the way to go. The lottery needs to be replaced with a demand system where the highest salaries get slots. A floor of $100,000/yr should exist and adjust for inflation. Next, generously expand the green card fast track, as this category of employee, as an immigrant, is a free agent to move among companies or to start their own business. To date, as we all know…

The minimum salary could be industry based. For example, 150% of the average wage for that field. If the point of these visas is to bring in talent that America doesn't have, that shouldn't be a problem. These people should be paid above average salaries if they are truly a scarce resource.

How do you prevent loopholes based on industry classification and job switching? Ex. what's going to stop a company from hiring a lower-minimum "design" worker and then having them do 10% design and 90% writing code? We have to assume that companies will attempt to abuse the system any way they can, so a simpler blanket setup for everyone is going to be much more effective than attempting a nuanced setup that would require even more oversight.

As others have pointed out, it would be better to create separate visas with stricter limits for industries that really need them, like high-level interpreters.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#97

Post by uncoder0 » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 3:32 PM UTC

ericd wrote: post #29

refurb wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

in the past it was assumed that the USA would honor visa once they were issued What do you mean by "honor"? A visa don't guarantee entry. It simply gives you a path to enter the country which includes inspection by immigration control. They make that very clear on the USCIS website and all the visa forms. A U.S. visa in his/her passport gives a foreign citizen permission to apply to enter the United States. A visa by…

In practice, it's necessary that it be sufficient for the vast majority of the cases. It's not worth it for most to risk the substantial financial/time outlay to travel/move halfway around the world to visit a country that has a good chance of not letting you in once you arrive on its doorstep.

You think there is a 'good chance' most visa holders will not be allowed entry into the United States this year? The US Issued ~10,000,000 Total Visas in 2015[1] while the current temporary ban on entry only effects at worst ~90,000[2] outstanding visas. Which means roughly ~1% of visas were effected. While a large number of people I don't think this represents a good chance that the US won't honor the VISAs it has issued.

[1]https://travel.state.gov/content/dam/visas/Statistics/Annual... [2]https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2017/01/...

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#98

Post by AnAnonyCowherd » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 3:32 PM UTC

hungrygs wrote: post #28

The general direction of the Trump plan regarding H-1b is the way to go. The lottery needs to be replaced with a demand system where the highest salaries get slots. A floor of $100,000/yr should exist and adjust for inflation. Next, generously expand the green card fast track, as this category of employee, as an immigrant, is a free agent to move among companies or to start their own business. To date, as we all know…

Where I work, they're filling roles of what would have been called an engineering clerk, back in the old days. Jobs for which a BS is an over-qualification. The visa holders are vastly underpaid for their education level, while people who would be a better fit can't get their foot in the door, and get a huge boost to their income, because they don't have a degree.

I think the "as we all know" is that big corporations use the visa program to create, in essence, indentured servitude. People who work for far less than the market-clearing wage for the position, because are beholden to their corporate sponsor. I find it reprehensible, and particularly galling that it's all done in the name of "diversity."

Most visa holders are young and incredibly vulnerable. Combine this with my particular company's absolutely legendarily capricious hire-and-fire cycle (for 30+ years), and they can really stick it to immigrants working for them via subcontracting.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#99

Post by karmelapple » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 3:33 PM UTC

lukeschlather wrote: post #69

jordanb wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree H1s should get Green Cards much faster. The visa employee should also have more flexibility in changing jobs, including when his GC is being processed. I don't like the "staple a green card" proposals for anyone who gets a STEM masters degree though. Many US Universities have already turned into masters degree mills for people trying to get visas. If Universities were allowed to sell Green Cards the problem w…

That sounds like a problem (if it is a problem) that should be addressed by limiting the number of student visas, not by allowing people to get a valuable US education and then telling them to go home. I've worked with many people on H1Bs and student visas. Every single one of them was a valuable person to work with, and they should be citizens. Maybe universities are becoming green card mills, but in my experience e…

Limiting the number of student visas will limit the amount of income for universities, though, so it will be fought at the institutional level.

If someone has spent multiple years - especially their undergrad AND graduate years - in the USA, and they are interested in permanent residence, why would we tell that person to leave?

If that person can select a job just like a US citizen without fear of getting deported, that more or less levels the playing field, correct? They don't have to take sub-industry-standard wages, and can instead hold out for the right job in the right place.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#100

Post by randomname2 » Thu, Feb 02, 2017, 3:33 PM UTC

hungrygs wrote: post #28

The general direction of the Trump plan regarding H-1b is the way to go. The lottery needs to be replaced with a demand system where the highest salaries get slots. A floor of $100,000/yr should exist and adjust for inflation. Next, generously expand the green card fast track, as this category of employee, as an immigrant, is a free agent to move among companies or to start their own business. To date, as we all know…

It seems this is about to happen soon, a draft of this new executive order was leaked and viewed by Axios yesterday [1]:

"A draft of Trump's executive order viewed by Axios directs the Secretary of Homeland Security to consider ways to "make the process of H-1B allocation more efficient and ensure the beneficiaries of the program are the best and the brightest." That could mean replacing the current lottery system with one that prioritizes visas for jobs promising the highest salaries."

"What it means for tech: In theory, prioritizing by salaries means visas for more senior, higher-paying jobs will be granted first, and visas for lower-paying jobs (such as those being filled by Indian IT services firms) would fall to the back of line, perhaps not getting allocated at all if demand for the high-wage job visas is strong."

"But there's a catch: Wage-based hiring means companies may miss out on mid-level workers they still have trouble filling with qualified Americans. For example, software engineering jobs will be filled quickly, but jobs for network engineers or tech support that tend to skew lower on the pay scale could be tough to fill without H-1B visas. "The demand in the job market is not always captured by the highest salary," said one tech lobbyist. So tech companies are advocating for worker skill-set to be taken into account in addition to salary alone."

[1] https://www.axios.com/h1-b-salaries-2228205505.html