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The Indian government is set to endorse Universal Basic Income

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Re: The Indian government is set to endorse Universal Basic Income

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh it looks like it is not even March 31st 2017 for NRIs but it is June 30th 2017 as per RBI notification: https://www.rbi.org.in/Scripts/NotificationUser.aspx?Id=1080... So you have 6 months time to deposit your old 500 and 1000 notes which even resident Indians don't enjoy as a privilege. Why are you whining?

> So you have 6 months time to deposit your old 500 and 1000 notes which even resident Indians don't enjoy as a privilege. Previously, we could simply exchange Indian currency to any other currency abroad. But now there is no way for us to exchange money in US. My whole family will have to go to India to exchange money, one person can only carry a maximum of Rs. 25,000. So six members of my family would have to take…

> Previously, we could simply exchange Indian currency to any other currency abroad. But now there is no way for us to exchange money in US. > My whole family will have to go to India to exchange money, one person can only carry a maximum of Rs. 25,000. So six members of my family would have to take time off from work and go to India to exchange 1.5 lakh Rupees. Moreover, it would cost us around Rs. 6 lakhs to make a trip to India.

You shouldn't have kept so much INR with you in the first place. What is the necessity to keep 1.5 lakhs hard cash in US when you can't even use it? Most of my NRI friends don't even carry cash. Even when I travel abroad I normally use International Debit/Credit cards issued by my bank. If there is a dire need to carry cash I normally convert it to dollars as soon as I land in the destination country.

You kept this stash of money without converting it to the dollar equivalent. It makes no sense to me at all and raises even more suspicions. Also, most of my NRI friends have NRO accounts which they have already used to deposit their old notes when they visited India during the demonetization phase. So it is purely your own doing to hoard INR in a country where it is not even recognized for trade.

> I don't want any privilege, I just want my hard earned money back.

In all possibility, you won't get it back. You had all the time in the World to convert your INR to USD through a local money exchanger. But you chose not to and decided (for whatever reason) to hoard it instead. If I were you, I would have converted my INR to USD as soon as I landed in US. I would rather have US dollars than have INR. If I needed INR I could have easily converted it back when I landed in India.

> I am not a blind bhakt. I lost 1.5 lakhs in this Modi's scam, this scam also destroyed my father's business in India. Modi killed over 100 people and destroyed millions of jobs, so he can write off bad loans worth billions for his cronies.

Nobody killed anyone or destroyed "millions of jobs". It is your own doing. You chose to stash INR instead of converting it to USD as soon as you landed in US.

He never said he will "write off bad loans". You are now spreading pure propaganda. He only classified these bad loans as NPA. Learn the difference between a loan write off and an NPA before spouting nonsense.

Re: The Indian government is set to endorse Universal Basic Income

#172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Indian Government has provided us no way to exchange currency or deposit it in our account if we are outside India. Modi declared our hard earned money as black money, and labelled us as criminals. This is a blatant lie. RBI allows you (a.k.a NRIs only) to deposit this money till 31st of March 2017 in it's branches. Modi never declared your hard earned money as black money or labelled you criminals. I'm now beginni…

> This is a blatant lie. RBI allows you (a.k.a NRIs only) to deposit this money till 31st of March 2017 in it's branches. Previously, we could simply exchange Indian currency to any other currency abroad. But now there is no way for us to exchange money in US. My whole family will have to go to India to exchange money, one person can only carry a maximum of Rs. 25,000. So six members of my family would have to take t…

I have replied in detail to your comment above.

Re: The Indian government is set to endorse Universal Basic Income

#173
post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The economics suggest UBI is inflationary even if budgets are balanced. For several reasons -- the most 101 is that an increase in the real value of the welfare scheme decreases the labor supply, implying rising wages and therefore rising prices.

Yes, an increase in real value of redistribution should raise the reservation wage and suggests increased wages for those people in the (somewhat smaller) labour force, but it will require higher taxes on those income-earners, reducing their real after-tax income. The money has to come from somewhere. I'm not saying that no prices for particular baskets of goods will go up, I'm just saying that general inflation will…

There is another issue besides the labor/wage effect on price, that aggregate demand is increased and therefore at current prices aggregate supply does not meet demand. Aggregate price levels should increase (keeping it at econ 101 since we could speculate about investment at this point).

edit: consumption increases despite the distribution being balanced since it's assumed that the transfer is from a minority of tax payers with significant income/assets to a majority that sees a substantial increase to their minimum guaranteed cash flow.

Re: The Indian government is set to endorse Universal Basic Income

#174
post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, an increase in real value of redistribution should raise the reservation wage and suggests increased wages for those people in the (somewhat smaller) labour force, but it will require higher taxes on those income-earners, reducing their real after-tax income. The money has to come from somewhere. I'm not saying that no prices for particular baskets of goods will go up, I'm just saying that general inflation will…

There is another issue besides the labor/wage effect on price, that aggregate demand is increased and therefore at current prices aggregate supply does not meet demand. Aggregate price levels should increase (keeping it at econ 101 since we could speculate about investment at this point). edit: consumption increases despite the distribution being balanced since it's assumed that the transfer is from a minority of tax…

Yes, aggregate demand is increased but aggregate savings, which are the source of investment, are decreased. Those assets of the minority, we're assuming, are also productive. So the prices of the assets purchased by those with 'significant income' go down. So this might manifest as increased prices on low-end staple goods and decreased prices on durable assets. Still doesn't imply general inflation. (Of course, this is a major bone of contention of the whole Monetarist vs Keynesian debate, so if you think the Keynesian account is more convincing, then that's a sticking point.)

Re: The Indian government is set to endorse Universal Basic Income

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So you have 6 months time to deposit your old 500 and 1000 notes which even resident Indians don't enjoy as a privilege. Previously, we could simply exchange Indian currency to any other currency abroad. But now there is no way for us to exchange money in US. My whole family will have to go to India to exchange money, one person can only carry a maximum of Rs. 25,000. So six members of my family would have to take…

> Previously, we could simply exchange Indian currency to any other currency abroad. But now there is no way for us to exchange money in US. > My whole family will have to go to India to exchange money, one person can only carry a maximum of Rs. 25,000. So six members of my family would have to take time off from work and go to India to exchange 1.5 lakh Rupees. Moreover, it would cost us around Rs. 6 lakhs to make a…

> You shouldn't have kept so much INR with you in the first place.

It's my hard earned tax paid money, and its my choice in what form I want to keep it.

The currency note says "I promise to pay the bearer the sum of one thousand rupees."

The Government and RBI are defaulting on their debt obligation against the promissory note. It is plunder and loot of massive proportion, even Congress wasn't this corrupt.

> So it is purely your own doing

My fault is that I trusted Indian Government and economy. After suffering through this Modi scam; my #1 priority is to close all my accounts in India, liquidate all my assets in India and withdraw all investments from India.

I will never make the mistake of trusting Indian Government and economy again.

Re: The Indian government is set to endorse Universal Basic Income

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What, in your judgement, makes it not a UBI? If basic income is X, some of the individuals receiving it will have a tax liability >= X. All legitimate UBI proposals I've ever heard share this property. It's either that, or the government finances the entire UBI with a budget deficit. And no one is seriously proposing that. There's also minimum guaranteed income... which guarantees that Earned Income + Basic Income -…

I initially interpreted the parent to say that employed people don't receive UBI. If they do, it is in fact a UBI but then does not get around the cost issue (I comment about that on a sub thread).

Absolutely it does get around the cost issue. Someone with no income receives just a UBI. They cost the system $20. Someone with non-zero income recives both a UBI and a higher income tax burden. What net impact does that individual have on the cost of the system? If their income is greater than the UBI... the impact might be zero, or negative.

Re: The Indian government is set to endorse Universal Basic Income

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one even came close to suggesting that a redistributional tax scheme is free. But interestingly: basic income provides more benefits with as income inequality goes up. That is, if everyone in society already has the same level of income, there would be no way to finance basic income through income tax. You would collect the same amount of tax from every person and then give it right back to them. However, in your…

Great-grandparent comment implied the only cost you need to consider is for unemployed people i.e. that it's free for those who are employed . That's wrong.

That's not at all what the great-grandparent comment said. It was talking about the aggregate cost of the entire system. And the great-great-grandparent was wondering "just where is the money going to come from?" but fundamentally it's not a problem. As long as the total basic income of a country is less than the total income of a country, the latter can be redistributed into the former.

Re: The Indian government is set to endorse Universal Basic Income

#178
post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is another issue besides the labor/wage effect on price, that aggregate demand is increased and therefore at current prices aggregate supply does not meet demand. Aggregate price levels should increase (keeping it at econ 101 since we could speculate about investment at this point). edit: consumption increases despite the distribution being balanced since it's assumed that the transfer is from a minority of tax…

Yes, aggregate demand is increased but aggregate savings, which are the source of investment, are decreased. Those assets of the minority, we're assuming, are also productive. So the prices of the assets purchased by those with 'significant income' go down. So this might manifest as increased prices on low-end staple goods and decreased prices on durable assets. Still doesn't imply general inflation. (Of course, this…

Many if not most Americans have investments, so the effect is not exactly balanced. Households that could do so would adjust their portfolios taking into account the additional guaranteed cash flow.

Investment also reacts positively to the expectation of inflation, though that's getting more speculative. I think I've reached the limit of what I can do with Econ 101, but I hope to have shown that there's at least a principled claim to UBI being inflationary. Rising consumer price levels alone is inflationary under some definitions, and the effect on investment is not straightforward.

Re: The Indian government is set to endorse Universal Basic Income

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Previously, we could simply exchange Indian currency to any other currency abroad. But now there is no way for us to exchange money in US. > My whole family will have to go to India to exchange money, one person can only carry a maximum of Rs. 25,000. So six members of my family would have to take time off from work and go to India to exchange 1.5 lakh Rupees. Moreover, it would cost us around Rs. 6 lakhs to make a…

> You shouldn't have kept so much INR with you in the first place. It's my hard earned tax paid money, and its my choice in what form I want to keep it. The currency note says "I promise to pay the bearer the sum of one thousand rupees." The Government and RBI are defaulting on their debt obligation against the promissory note. It is plunder and loot of massive proportion, even Congress wasn't this corrupt. > So it i…

> It's my hard earned tax paid money, and its my choice in what form I want to keep it.

Sure you can. But you need to bear the consequences as legal tender does not have unlimited liability (in other words: the debt obligation is not absolute). Because the Section 26, sub-section (2) of the Reserve Bank of India Act, empowers the Union Government on the recommendation of Central Board to declare that "any notes issued by the Reserve Bank will no longer be legal tender."

Also, Section 26, sub-section (1) of the Reserve Bank of India Act states that: "Subject to the provisions of sub-section (2), every bank note shall be legal tender at any place in 4[India] in payment or on account for the amount expressed therein, and shall be guaranteed by the 5[Central Government]."

It clearly states that the bank note will be legal tender at any place in India and shall be guaranteed by the Central Government. It does not say that the bank note will be legal tender outside India and does not give any guarantees. Yet, the Government opened a window for NRI's to deposit their notes (if they have any) with their respective Indian banks in India.

> The Government and RBI are defaulting on their debt obligation against the promissory note. It is plunder and loot of massive proportion, even Congress wasn't this corrupt.

That's your opinion. I don't believe it is plunder or loot. Hoarding of cash (whether tax is paid or not) is equivalent to loot as it stops the money from being in circulation thereby causing the RBI to print more and more notes to compensate for an increasing demand for these paper notes. If you had deposited in the banks the Government would have used it for public good (and guaranteed you interest + principal amount). Notes that have been hoarded are neither useful for the Government, for the public nor for the hoarder thereby putting a huge stress on the overall economy. Unfortunately for you, you fall in the basket of hoarders who paid tax rather than basket of hoarders who did not pay tax (black money hoarders). But you hoarded nevertheless and there in lies the problem. You may say it's only 1.5 lakhs. But just imagine if every single of the 1.25 billion Indians think the same way. Like I said earlier, all my NRI friends used to deposit their money into their NRO/NRE accounts and if they carried cash they would convert to equivalent USD as soon as they landed in US. I mean, who in their right mind would not want USD in favor of INR? Especially outside India where it has no legal value (except in Nepal and Bhutan)?

> My fault is that I trusted Indian Government and economy. After suffering through this Modi scam; my #1 priority is to close all my accounts in India, liquidate all my assets in India and withdraw all investments from India. I will never make the mistake of trusting Indian Government and economy again.

But you will trust a Government that prints "In God we Trust" on it's own notes? Was it not Roosevelt who passed the "Executive Order 6102" in 1933 which "forbids the Hoarding of gold coin, gold bullion, and gold certificates within the continental United States"? The reason given by Roosevelt: "Hoarding of Gold stalled economic growth and made depression worse".

Also read up on "The Crime of 1873".

Re: The Indian government is set to endorse Universal Basic Income

#180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mobile literacy? Was such a research done before the Mobile and Telecom revolution? Spare me your ignorance please. Forget the Planning Commission of India, we have had the worst experience with a Prime Minister, who was an Economist, and had no spine to take on the corrupt or even implement his own policies. India practically lost 10 years of it's growth to this useless economist. So no please, we don't need more ec…

The 90 reforms were by the same person you are criticizing.

Yes and I already acknowledged it when I said he was "possibly the best economist India had". How did I qualify he was "the best economist"? Because of his reforms in the 90s which were spearheaded by the then Prime Minister Narasimha Rao. Would he have been able to conduct the same reforms if he was the Prime Minister instead of Narasimha Rao? Never.

As I said earlier, economists have a place. He was great as a Finance Minister and RBI Governor. But the moment he became a policy decision maker (rather than just a policy maker) he failed miserably. Do you understand this basic difference? This is the reason I say that economists cannot take policy decisions. They can make the right policies if they are dictated by someone higher up the chain but are incapable to take the same decisions if they are given a chance.

The evidence for that is the GST reform. GST was the brainchild of Manmohan Singh and his Planning Commission when he was the Prime Minister for 10 years. But he failed to get the damn reform passed in the Indian Parliament mainly because he did not know or understand political maneuvering. How is it that the same GST reform, which was Manmohan's brainchild, passed by Narendra Modi (who is his opponent) without any troubles?

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