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Electric cars are no longer held back by crappy, expensive batteries

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Re: Electric cars are no longer held back by crappy, expensive batteries

#171
post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is where we should be heading IMHO. Synthetic petroleum fuels that are carbon-neutral. This lets us keep using the existing infrastructure for transporting and retail sale of fuel, lets people keep using their current cars to maximize that value. Saves the absolutely massive investment that would be necessary to upgrade electical generation and delivery infrastructure to power a large fleet of EVs.

No, it absolutely is not. Of all the ideas of how to power transportation in the future this is one of the worst. First, the idea that it is carbon neutral is absurdly wrong. If you're pulling the carbon out of anywhere but the atmosphere (and you are), then it's no more carbon neutral than pumping oil out of the ground and burning that. Second, it's hugely inefficient. If you're manufacturing fully synthetic petrole…

I shall address your points by paragraph:

1) Erm. There's only really two places you can get carbon - the ground, or the atmosphere. Any biofuel eventually comes from plants or algae, which get their carbon from the atmosphere. I don't really know where else you had in mind.

2) That doesn't make it inefficient. The whole point is that it's acting as storage rather than fuel. That's what makes it carbon-neutral - the carbon comes out of the atmosphere, then goes back (instead of out of the ground and into the atmosphere).

3) Not sure I buy that. Electricity distribution is hardly lossless (and what powers the power station?). Our best grid-scale storage solutions run about 75% efficient, while car-scale batteries leak charge much faster than a gasoline tank leaks gasoline. And both a gasoline car and an EV have to carry around heavy energy storage - the difference is the gasoline tank gets lighter as it empties.

4) To be fair, you have to compare the efficiency of the ICE to the combined efficiency of the motor, power station, and all intermediate storage (every time the power moves from one battery to another, you lose some, while gasoline can be stored and dispensed fairly losslessly). Transmission costs also have to compared like-for-like - grid scale distribution runs about 95% efficient, while oil tankers are 97-98% (though you have to factor in last-mile, and trucks are ten times as thirsty). I don't think the calculation is as clear-cut as you're making out.

It's also worth querying what exactly "efficiency" means. If the source is sustainable (and biofuel is), raw energy wastage is less important than gross environmental impact and safety. It's not clear to me that mining nuclear materials and dealing with the waste, or mining rare earth metals to carpet the land in solar panels, are necessarily better or more sustainable solutions that carpeting the land in fast-growing, high-energy crops and fuelling all of society that way. Perhaps it is a bad solution - it depends on how the numbers fall exactly on things like land use, (and possibly your values regarding safety decisions). If it's already been thoroughly analysed and found wanting, then I'd love to read that. But at the moment you've not really made an argument commensurate with the strength of your opinion.

Re: Electric cars are no longer held back by crappy, expensive batteries

#172
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How common will electric charging stations be if it turns out that EVs can't rise above 10% of the total car market? One of the beauties of EVs is you don't need charging stations. I leased a Nissan LEAF 2 years ago, and it almost only gets charged at home. You can't really know whether EVs are going to take over or not, it depends on too many factors. If our government gets bamboozled with Hydrogen the way they di…

>One of the beauties of EVs is you don't need charging stations >Your car refuels while it's parked in your garage. So not only do you need to own a charging station you also need a house and a garage, got it.

You do not need to own a charging station. My Leaf charges to 100% overnight just fine and it plugs into a standard 110 wall outlet in my house.

You also don't need a garage, as they charge just fine outdoors (been charging mine in my driveway for 1.5 years), but that's just arguing semantics at this point.

Re: Electric cars are no longer held back by crappy, expensive batteries

#173
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Median daily distance is actually close to about 30 miles in the US. I'd be surprised if the 95th percentile (equating to more than once per month) wasn't already within the range of a Tesla, though the report doesn't have that figure. https://www.aaafoundation.org/american-driving-survey-year-o...

I travel regularly to NYC from Albany (about 150 miles). Many other people do as well, based on the NYC->ALB traffic you see on weekend evenings. It's a trip that is definitely in the range of a Tesla from a point A to point B point of view -- but you end up with lots of overhead. Did I fully charge before the trip? Will I do a side trip? Will I drive around when I get there? The electric car adds a lot of complicati…

I want to say straight out, I agree that range-anxiety is real. People need to be comfortable that the car will be able to go wherever they need to go, whenever they need to do there. That is, at least in America, the cultural equivocation that driving === freedom.

That said, this statement:

> The electric car adds a lot of complication, and doesn't really solve any problem right now.

leaves me obligated to point out a few things. I will reason from analogy for point:

1. I just quit smoking, it wasn't obvious that it solved a problem right now, but I hope it will eliminate some later ;).

2. It doesn't matter, at least by Tesla's conception, that electric cars solve anything. Obviously, it is a mission driven company but that mission doesn't/shouldn't matter to the end user. Electric cars should be great for their own sake, and as good or better than a comprably priced ICE.

Re: Electric cars are no longer held back by crappy, expensive batteries

#174
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where do the normal cars park?

By the side of the street. In between the street and pedestrians passage. Or between street and bicycle path. Sometimes diagonally. The only possible charging would be some stuff that's underground and comes out of the ground right next to the car. Hopefully attaches to the bottom of the car, so there're no hoses/wires flinging around. And some cars are parked at grey-legal spots blocking other cars. People just leav…

Or overhead?

Re: Electric cars are no longer held back by crappy, expensive batteries

#175
post #101
post #97

What about making the battery packs "hot swappable". You pull into the station, the current pack is unloaded and a new one is loaded. I It can also have interesting effects on the battery upgrade you need to do every X amount of years. The packs could be owned by the gas station chain, so you can stop at any of their establishments and get a new one refiled. These battery pack charging stations could then also be use…

The french car maker Renault tried this : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_Fluence_Z.E . ( It didn't work.

Sounds like it wasn't profitable, at least in 2013: "The company's financial difficulties were caused by the high investment required to develop the charging and swapping infrastructure, about US$850 million in private capital, and a market penetration significantly lower than originally predicted..."
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