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Jeff Bezos Says Amazon Won’t Tolerate ‘Callous’ Management Practices

nytimes.com

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Re: Jeff Bezos Says Amazon Won’t Tolerate ‘Callous’ Management Practices

#171

Post by dpark »

jazzyk wrote: post #163
dpark wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Politely but firmly told her ... Fuck off Your story makes you sound abrasive and unpleasant. If the story played out the way you tell it, she obviously was a bad actor and did something terrible. (And yes, there are definitely some people who will play control games with any little bit of power they gain.) It's difficult to sympathize with you, though, when even your telling of the story makes you sound difficult…

You missed one word - "politely". One can be polite and still convey the intended message :-) She obviously got it, hence the revenge.

I didn't miss the word. I just don't believe it's accurate. If the intended message was "fuck off", there's no polite way to deliver that. You might deliver it without literally saying the words, but if the meaning is intact, you're not being polite.

I also don't believe a politely delivered message can result in a 3-month plot filled with false reports, culminating in job termination. How does that play out? "Wow, he's so polite all the time! I'll fuck him over anyway because I'm pure evil! And I've got nothing better to do, so I'll keep at it for months!"

Re: Jeff Bezos Says Amazon Won’t Tolerate ‘Callous’ Management Practices

#172

Post by dragonwriter »

rdtsc wrote: post #167
balls187 wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This whole notion of "HR isn't your friend" is nonsensical. No department at the company is your friend. You stop performing at your job, you will probably be fired--or promoted. Even your real friends won't be your friends for very long if their own self-interests are always in contention against your own. HR is fulfills a specific sets of roles for the company and they exist to look out for the best interest of the…

> No department at the company is your friend. Of course not, except not many disguise themselves as your friend, that was the point. Nobody thinks the finance department is there to make your life easy as a developer or to somehow take your side vis-a-vis an argument with the higher-ups. But somehow the image of "HR" working for the employees and advocating for them persists. Just read Jeff's email as an example. "T…

> But somehow the image of "HR" working for the employees and advocating for them persists.

One of the most important techniques HR departments have in maximizing the extracted value to extraction cost ratio for the company's "human resources" is to convince those resources that the HR department is their advocate within the company rather than the company's office responsible for the aforementioned cost/benefit optimization.

(OTOH, there are good reasons for a well-run HR department to be an employee advocate within the company on issues in many cases, since often the cost effective way to keep employees productive is to address their needs and desires; but its important to understand why that may sometimes be the case, and why it is not universally the case.)

Re: Jeff Bezos Says Amazon Won’t Tolerate ‘Callous’ Management Practices

#173

Post by Natsu »

omouse wrote: post #120
degradas wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is book a called Corporate Confidential [1], written by a former HR person. One of most significant ideas there is that HR is (from the perspective of an employee) not your friend, but rather an enemy. They exist to protect the company, not you. Basically, going to HR is a quick way to get fired (for legal reasons, mind you) or kill your career. Whole book is highly depressing, but very useful if you want to tr…

There's another book that's good book called Secrets to Winning at Office Politics[1], it basically says that no one likes a complainer so keep it to a minimum. It also saids that perception is what matters. The book, like the one you mention, is a little depressing but if you're stuck in a corporate environment and want to avoid being depressed it pays off to pay attention to what the book says. [1] http://www.amazo…

I find it Amazing that we managed to get Amazon product links into a story badmouthing Amazon :) Here are some alternate links pulled from a quick google search.

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/corporate-confidential-cynth...

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/secrets-to-winning-at-office...

Back on topic, I too well understand these things, having had a few painful incidents with HR myself. I ended up coming out on top, more or less, in the end, but you have to know that if you have a complaint about someone, you probably will have to confront that person and prove it. I managed to do that, but I would probably have had to leave the company if I hadn't, honestly.

HR was mostly worried about lawsuit potential. My immediate boss was, at least, humane. He even made a point of sitting on 'my side' during the meeting so that I wasn't alone there.

Re: Jeff Bezos Says Amazon Won’t Tolerate ‘Callous’ Management Practices

#174

Post by bananasNfucku »

JoshuaEddy wrote: post #85
rdtsc wrote: post #4

> But if you know of any stories like those reported, I want you to escalate to HR. You can also email me directly at jeff@amazon.com. Even if it’s rare or isolated, our tolerance for any such lack of empathy needs to be zero. I say don't escalate to HR but leave to work at another place. HR is not your advocate, it is not there to help you. You are just a "resource" just like it says in the name. There have been man…

I want to realign HR under a "Chief Productivity Officer" who is also responsible for IT. The CPO's goal and metric is maximization of workforce productivity by getting employees working smart, working hard, retaining good people and getting rid of the bad, improving management skills, and leveraging technology.

You want to increase productivity by adding layers of complexity.

OK.

Re: Jeff Bezos Says Amazon Won’t Tolerate ‘Callous’ Management Practices

#175

Post by greenyoda »

rdtsc wrote: post #132
abandonliberty wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes - but be careful about the equation, it's something like this: (Your value + cost of incident - squeaky wheel cost) vs (manager's value) The incident has to be fairly egregious to tip the scales in your favor, and the squeaky wheel cost can follow you.

That is why a last alternative is to suggest you might go public, it forces their hand because now "cost of incident" can be rather high. As it is PR damage all across the board for the company. Of course, it might fix things in the short term but it won't be forgotten in the long term.

I don't think that an unknown Amazon employee going public could add much to the damage that the current media coverage has already inflicted. HR would probably just shrug it off. Also, taking a dispute with your employer public might cause other companies to think twice about hiring you in the future (your publicity will show up if they Google you). If you're down to your last alternative, it's probably time to find a new job.

Re: Jeff Bezos Says Amazon Won’t Tolerate ‘Callous’ Management Practices

#176

Post by eip »

https://gist.github.com/chitchcock/1281611

"Ha, ha! You 150-odd ex-Amazon folks here will of course realize immediately that #7 was a little joke I threw in, because Bezos most definitely does not give a shit about your day."

"We're talking about a guy who in all seriousness has said on many public occasions that people should be paying him to work at Amazon. He hands out little yellow stickies with his name on them, reminding people "who runs the company" when they disagree with him. The guy is a regular... well, Steve Jobs, I guess. Except without the fashion or design sense. Bezos is super smart; don't get me wrong. He just makes ordinary control freaks look like stoned hippies."

"At this point they don't even do it out of fear of being fired. I mean, they're still afraid of that; it's pretty much part of daily life there, working for the Dread Pirate Bezos and all."

Re: Jeff Bezos Says Amazon Won’t Tolerate ‘Callous’ Management Practices

#177

Post by bananasNfucku »

joesmo wrote: post #68

Sounds like Bezos is just doing damage control. The original article is somewhat interesting but hardly novel. I've never talked to a single person who worked at Amazon who had anything positive to say. You have recruiters recruiting for Amazon who are basically saying, "Do not work there." They are being paid on commission to get you to work there and they're telling you what a horrible place to work it is, killing…

Right?

For someone many folks refer to as "a very smart man" it's obvious this is just damage control. It was probably prepared as soon as they found out NYT was going to run the piece.

180,000 employees. He'll only ever interact with a tiny portion of those people, and even then it's mostly going to be the sycophants and a few alpha-crony confidants. Shocking he has a radically different experience.

His company sued (and won) to prevent warehouse workers from collecting money for the time they stand in-line being frisked.

Not only do we shuffle them through our fascist security machine with little trust, or dignity. We also refuse to give them just a bit more, so that King Bezos can continue to drink their babies tears lest the sheen on his bald head dim just a bit.

I mean they're already near the bottom of the totem pole. Surely one more kick to the stomach shall barely be noticed.

Such empathy.

Re: Jeff Bezos Says Amazon Won’t Tolerate ‘Callous’ Management Practices

#178

Post by niuzeta »

degradas wrote: post #10
rdtsc wrote: post #4

> But if you know of any stories like those reported, I want you to escalate to HR. You can also email me directly at jeff@amazon.com. Even if it’s rare or isolated, our tolerance for any such lack of empathy needs to be zero. I say don't escalate to HR but leave to work at another place. HR is not your advocate, it is not there to help you. You are just a "resource" just like it says in the name. There have been man…

There is book a called Corporate Confidential [1], written by a former HR person. One of most significant ideas there is that HR is (from the perspective of an employee) not your friend, but rather an enemy. They exist to protect the company, not you. Basically, going to HR is a quick way to get fired (for legal reasons, mind you) or kill your career. Whole book is highly depressing, but very useful if you want to tr…

That the link is for Amazon is hilariously ironic.

Re: Jeff Bezos Says Amazon Won’t Tolerate ‘Callous’ Management Practices

#180

Post by rdtsc »

greenyoda wrote: post #175
rdtsc wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is why a last alternative is to suggest you might go public, it forces their hand because now "cost of incident" can be rather high. As it is PR damage all across the board for the company. Of course, it might fix things in the short term but it won't be forgotten in the long term.

I don't think that an unknown Amazon employee going public could add much to the damage that the current media coverage has already inflicted. HR would probably just shrug it off. Also, taking a dispute with your employer public might cause other companies to think twice about hiring you in the future (your publicity will show up if they Google you). If you're down to your last alternative, it's probably time to find…

It is hard to say. HN makes the development world pretty small. It is like a smaller provincial town where everyone kind of can find out stuff even if they don't know you personally. Damaging the image of a tech company on HN could be serious, it could impact ability to hire in the future.

But you are right, it is the nuclear option. After that even if problem is solved immediately, a stab in the back in the future is expected.

As for future employability, you are right as well. However, I can see a small start-up actually seeking out self-reliant people who have a sense of justice doing what is right. So the quality could also be appealing.

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