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The Human Toll of Flashbangs

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Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#161

Post by dagw »

tomohawk wrote: post #157
Rainymood wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And this is the problem with guns, imagine if the police didn't have any guns and they would have to approach him by first. Obviously they outnumber him but know (unless he has a lethal weapon on him) there shouldn't be any lethal force. Guns escalate the situation way too quickly to a life threatening one ...

And the problem with police not having guns is amply demonstrated by the recent terror in France. The first police to respond were unarmed.

What difference to you think it would have made if they had been armed?

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#162

Post by amirmc »

tinco wrote: post #151
amirmc wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find this attitude confusing. You're suggesting that cops are the ones who need to be made to feel safer? That by making them them feel safer they might be less likely to start shooting? Who is protecting who in this brave new world?

You're being irrational now. Of course cops need to be and feel safe. They are just humans, humans equipped with guns. Anything you can do to make sure they don't fire those guns prematurely should be done, after all, they're for protecting us. Calling it an armored tank is exaggerating. It's basically a mobile barrier that can carry a bunch of officers. There's all kinds of nice stuff you can do with them, and frank…

I find that logic utterly distorted. Give a bunch of humans guns, the right to use deadly force and then for some reason worry about making them 'feel safe' -- oh, and also absolve them if things go wrong (or even if they break the law), as we've seen in recent US news. I think they're already safer than most people.

What cops really need is better and more substantive training, not equipment to hide behind.

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#163

Post by boomlinde »

puredemo wrote: post #140
Normati wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America isn't the problem, Americans are. Everyone who voted for this is to blame. From what I understand you can even vote for some of the local judges or prosecutors too! There's no excuse but to recognize that your neighbors are responsible for the problems due to their own selfishness. They want the police to be brutal because the drug raid isn't going to be on their home, it'll be on some poor person's home and…

It's not like there are any other countries where there isn't a drug war. Every first world country outlaws addictive drugs for the same ignorant reasons. (not harm-reduction)

I think you are allowing "war" to be a metaphor for restrictive policies, where "war" in this context is literally armed conflict with a death toll.

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#164

Post by ceejayoz »

tomohawk wrote: post #157
Rainymood wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And this is the problem with guns, imagine if the police didn't have any guns and they would have to approach him by first. Obviously they outnumber him but know (unless he has a lethal weapon on him) there shouldn't be any lethal force. Guns escalate the situation way too quickly to a life threatening one ...

And the problem with police not having guns is amply demonstrated by the recent terror in France. The first police to respond were unarmed.

That doesn't appear to be true.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/08/ahmed-merabet-m...

> Merabet, who according to officials was 40, was called to the scene while on patrol with a female colleague in the neighbourhood, just in time to see the black Citroën used by the two killers heading towards the boulevard from Charlie Hebdo.

> “He was on foot, and came nose to nose with the terrorists. He pulled out his weapon. It was his job, it was his duty,” said Rocco Contento, a colleague who was a union representative at the central police station for Paris’s 11th arrondissement.

> Another policeman, 48-year-old Franck Brinsolaro, was killed moments earlier in the assault on Charlie Hebdo where he was responsible for the protection of its editor, Stéphane Charbonnier, one of the 11 killed in the building. A colleague said he “never had time” to pull his weapon.

See also the NYPD cops killed recently - definitely armed - who were shot regardless.

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#165

Post by briandear »

flashbangs are warranted when there is a high threat profile. The problem is that a 'raid' doesn't rise to the level of 'high threat profile.' The problem isn't the police tactics, it's a problem of bad risk management. Police have been considering all manner of crimes 'raid worthy.' If SWAT was going after known dangerous and armed gang members or they were in a hostage situation, flashbangs might be the right tactic; it would depend on the threat profile and pre-raid intelligence. SpecOps operators rarely just blast into a room. Oftentimes there are eyes on the target, including surveillance to determine the threat profile. Cops could have very easily just staked out the house and grabbed the guy when he walked outside. But that isn't as 'sexy' and suiting up in full battle rattle and rappelling from the roof tossing flashbangs, and kicking in doors.

While the drug war is a big prt of this, the larger problem is the lack of meaningful and audited protocols for various situations.

Going after a guy with weed should require a much different approach than taking down a meth lab. Though, a flashbang in a meth lab would be a sight to see.

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#166

Post by briandear »

pjc50 wrote: post #134
girvo wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jesus... that's completely indefensible. Now, I don't live in the US, and I only see the bad stuff that happens through the media, but I truly can't see why the police need to do things this way...

The answer that hasn't yet been mentioned in this thread: racism.

Really? Any evidence to back that up?

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#167

Post by rhino369 »

corndoge wrote: post #38

“Everyone carries a flashbang,” Malette testified. “Any time we encounter locked doors, we have an unknown, we have to gain back that initiative.” I understand that police are interested in maintaining control of a situation, but practices like throwing flashbang grenades into houses without looking...these guys seem to think they're Delta Force.

Part of the problem is they are asked to be Delta Force. I wouldn't storm a house without a sub machine and a flashbang either.

But I also wouldn't storm houses in the first place.

Raids aren't needed except in very exceptional cases like a hostage situation or a spree killer.

It's time for police to need a court's permission to specifically raid without a clear and present danger.

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#168

Post by rhino369 »

corndoge wrote: post #38

“Everyone carries a flashbang,” Malette testified. “Any time we encounter locked doors, we have an unknown, we have to gain back that initiative.” I understand that police are interested in maintaining control of a situation, but practices like throwing flashbang grenades into houses without looking...these guys seem to think they're Delta Force.

Part of the problem is they are asked to be Delta Force. I wouldn't storm a house without a sub machine and a flashbang either.

But I also wouldn't storm houses in the first place.

Raids aren't needed except in very exceptional cases like a hostage situation or a spree killer.

It's time for police to need a court's permission to specifically raid without a clear and present danger.

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#169

Post by snsr »

sukilot wrote: post #94
aswanson wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet, American citizenry at large and the justice system in general gives the police the benefit of the doubt in all matters versus the populace. Are we really that dumb as a country? If you have to ask...

As horrible as police brutality it, it still directly hurts less than ~20% of society (more in some really bad areas, less in others). So only those, plus the few percent of others who have a sense of compassion, are opposed to the brutality. The rest are either ignorant or complicit or in cognitir dissonance.

> As horrible as police brutality it, it still directly hurts less than ~20% of society. So only those, plus the few percent of others who have a sense of compassion, are opposed to the brutality.

Your unsupported position is disgusting.

It hurts all of us when some are beyond reproach for brutalizing and murdering the most vulnerable in our society.

Re: The Human Toll of Flashbangs

#170

Post by Spooky23 »

dalke wrote: post #144
Spooky23 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cops make crazy money. A relative is a lieutenant, make $120k, and overtime brings that up to almost $200k. If he doesn't make the next promotion in a year or two, he'll be retiring at 42 making around $100k. Unless you work for some hick department, a cop will easily make more than 80% in coders outside of the Bay Area, and unlike in software, you don't get nuked when you get old. That said, it's a brutal job that t…

"Cops" is a broad term. For police officers in general, $120K/year base salary is extremely high, and not representative of the average. To get your conclusion you have to compare the highest paying jobs for police officers with the average paying jobs for software developers. Here are more details from the BLS about 'Police and Sheriff's Patrol Officers' for 2013: http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes333051.htm mean an…

You're missing a few key things:

- Overtime. In many cases, police overtime exceeds base salary. Example from Schenectady, NY, which is city of 50-75k people in upstate NY. ( http://www.timesunion.com/local/article/Schenectady-cop-s-pa... )

- Actuarial value of pension. Even using the BLS base salary data without overtime of $58k, you need to valuate the cost of a $30k annuity for 30-40 years, as most police have 20 year retirement options at half pay.

- Actuarial value of healthcare. Most jurisdictions provide no-cost healthcare for retirees, at least until recently.

When I say "crazy" money, I mean that being a police officer is a very well paid profession, both in terms of salary and total compensation with pensions & benefits. It's one of the last really good, broadly available blue-collar jobs. That said, the trade-off is that it is a very stressful job where you're exposed to significant risks.

On the flip-side, software developers are rarely unionized and get a lousy deal. How many software developers are paid overtime? Almost all police are.

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