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Ask HN: What do you do when your entire being opposes the task at hand?

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Re: Ask HN: What do you do when your entire being opposes the task at hand?

#161

Post by babby »

justizin wrote: post #141
ryandrake wrote: post #111

Oh boy, so I get to be the contrarian again. First of all, isn't it a bit dramatic to say "your entire being opposes" your task? It's not like you're out committing genocide or something. You're programming, and you have to work on a crappy programming task. Every programmer who ever worked a professional job has had to do this at some point. If the very fiber of your soul is wrapped up in your employer's MegaAccount…

you come pretty close to invoking godwin's law, here. if you depend on a place for compensation, then you should be interested in its' success, and if some bonehead (let's not pick on marketing, since it's not always them) has a stupid idea, and money is being wasted on you doing that, it's actually your responsibility to do something about it. per the law of supply and demand, it's also completely reasonable to leav…

> "This is the realistic world of grown-up work life."

Actually this sounds like a statement from someone who is fulfilled outside of work, or on different projects within work. I'm of the same opinion. Most people can't have ann interesting workload, so why does this guy have to be "unimaginative" and "uncreative"? Why attack anyone for a statement like that? I'd much rather not work with someone like you.

Re: Ask HN: What do you do when your entire being opposes the task at hand?

#162

Post by georgemcbay »

kevinskii wrote: post #160
rturben wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm someone graduating from college in a few months, and this is one of the most striking things to me about a programmer's expected outlook on jobs. The career path of going and getting an internship, then becoming a junior developer, etc etc at some corporation is something that seems like it would suck the soul out of anyone that is even moderately creative. During my first internship at a "normal" corporation, I…

I would suggest that you don't try to "avoid" the corporate phase. Instead look for a company that makes a product which you find meaningful. Once you do, you'll likely be able to find creative avenues regardless of the company's size. You just have to go about it the right way: First, you'll want to become a expert in your company's product domain. This will make your creative flashes much more relevant, and therefo…

"After a few successive wins you'll be allowed more and more leeway to apply your creative energies during company time"

As someone almost as old as jblow who has worked across a wide gamut of different companies from very small to very large, this is sometimes true, but is by no means universal.

You would rationally think that if you are directly improving team productivity, customer satisfaction and the bottom-line that'll earn you more autonomy, but office politics are not always on the same continent as rationality.

Re: Ask HN: What do you do when your entire being opposes the task at hand?

#163

Post by toxiczone »

I don't have any tips for you. I am stuck in the exact same situation. I'm actually thankful that you shared your story and several of the comments posted here. It made me feel less lonely with my situation.

The quitting part, moving on to a new job is not an option for me as I am convinced that it is the same exact situation in most businesses around my area.

I started working on some personal projects which helps a lot, but does not solve my problem.

I find myself pushing to the last minute before the task at hand is due. The extra rush of adrenaline from the looming deadline gives me the kick I need to overcome the meaningless work I am about to do...

Good luck.

Re: Ask HN: What do you do when your entire being opposes the task at hand?

#164

Post by S4M »

zeteo wrote: post #151
jblow wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are presuming a lot about what my early career looks like. Really I never worked any jobs as bad as what you describe. Well, maybe the time I did data entry during my first year of college. The longest I ever worked in a highly corporate environment was 7-8 months, but at least at that time I was doing something at least slightly cool (a port of Doom 2 back when that was a new game, and with which I had full auto…

Well yes, this is how corporations roll. It's nobody's fault - just human nature. But looking for a non-corporate job is not a solution for everyone, especially not for those of us who have bills to pay or personal commitments to hold on to. Plus, that's where the jobs are .

What you said is really, really depressing. "Jobs are shit and useless, and you have to have one."

I do hope you are wrong.

Re: Ask HN: What do you do when your entire being opposes the task at hand?

#165

Post by Joeri »

georgemcbay wrote: post #162
kevinskii wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would suggest that you don't try to "avoid" the corporate phase. Instead look for a company that makes a product which you find meaningful. Once you do, you'll likely be able to find creative avenues regardless of the company's size. You just have to go about it the right way: First, you'll want to become a expert in your company's product domain. This will make your creative flashes much more relevant, and therefo…

"After a few successive wins you'll be allowed more and more leeway to apply your creative energies during company time" As someone almost as old as jblow who has worked across a wide gamut of different companies from very small to very large, this is sometimes true, but is by no means universal. You would rationally think that if you are directly improving team productivity, customer satisfaction and the bottom-line…

It's also very easy to lose what you gained. Over a number of years I earned autonomy through a reputation of getting things done, to the point where i was making major product-level decisions and controlled who did what on the team. Then new management came in and decided to change course, and within a year or two my autonomy was reduced to almost nothing.

You have to remember that if you're not the owner of a company, you have no rights to the products that company makes. Whatever privileges you have you keep by the grace of the owners, and when they change ...

Ofcourse, if you're the owner you're unlikely to actually be able to write code all the time, having to deal with the soft parts of the business. The grass is always greener on the other side I suppose.

Re: Ask HN: What do you do when your entire being opposes the task at hand?

#166

Post by zeteo »

S4M wrote: post #164
zeteo wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well yes, this is how corporations roll. It's nobody's fault - just human nature. But looking for a non-corporate job is not a solution for everyone, especially not for those of us who have bills to pay or personal commitments to hold on to. Plus, that's where the jobs are .

What you said is really, really depressing. "Jobs are shit and useless, and you have to have one." I do hope you are wrong.

Knowledge is power. Take pride in surviving the toughest position in the corporate food chain and create opportunities to move up. If you become the boss one day and roll less sh*t downhill than your predecessor, more power to you then.

Re: Ask HN: What do you do when your entire being opposes the task at hand?

#167

Post by peter-row »

Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference, right?

Your problem is not really knowing if you can change things. Or whether it's worthwhile to change things. Ultimately, you can't really know whether it's better to try to change things (communicating better, focusing more on design vs writing code faster, getting a new job), so you have to accept that.

So ... whatever you choose to do, you can't really beat yourself up over making a bad choice. It's a hard decision. Whether you stick with the job and try to change people's minds, do things the way you currently are (but without stressing so much), or find a new job is a difficult decision, but no choice really stands out as a clear winner (from the little you've said), so just pick one and go with it.

If you want a new job, go hit up linked-in.

If you want to do things the way you currently are, just accept that programmers "waste time" - there's a reason why competent programmers often only write 10 lines of code a day - it's not easy work.

You can try to communicate better, but really, some people just don't listen. Or maybe the managers don't have a choice - they either have managers or customers.

Finally, work harder on documenting / presenting your progress. It never hurts to write stuff up, and explain the decisions you're making or the technical reasons why progress is slow.

Re: Ask HN: What do you do when your entire being opposes the task at hand?

#168

Post by CamperBob2 »

septerr wrote: post #59
mnw21cam wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The other point is that if this is your BF's project, you are in serious danger of building up a load of resentment for him and breaking up the relationship if things get any worse. It may actually be better to tell him that you're not getting on with the project and it'd be better for your relationship if you work in different places. There's nothing wrong with that.

This job is not directly for the startup. I have been contracted out by the startup to this job and the money it brings is important for the startup atm.

That changes things a bit. If you believe strongly in the startup's strategic goals, then perhaps you can convince yourself that your current goal is purely tactical, and can indeed force yourself through it with willpower alone. Sometimes -- rarely, IMHO -- flogging yourself to get through some necessary shit work does make sense.

If you were actually working at the startup, on its principal mission, then your problem would be more complex. Not only would you have to think about the appropriateness/advisability of the particular feature you're implementing, but you'd have to constantly evaluate it in light of your relationship with your SO and your prospects in the new company. It would be very difficult to separate these questions in your mind, so IMHO it's a good thing you don't have to.

Re: Ask HN: What do you do when your entire being opposes the task at hand?

#169

Post by [deleted] »

georgemcbay wrote: post #162
kevinskii wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would suggest that you don't try to "avoid" the corporate phase. Instead look for a company that makes a product which you find meaningful. Once you do, you'll likely be able to find creative avenues regardless of the company's size. You just have to go about it the right way: First, you'll want to become a expert in your company's product domain. This will make your creative flashes much more relevant, and therefo…

"After a few successive wins you'll be allowed more and more leeway to apply your creative energies during company time" As someone almost as old as jblow who has worked across a wide gamut of different companies from very small to very large, this is sometimes true, but is by no means universal. You would rationally think that if you are directly improving team productivity, customer satisfaction and the bottom-line…

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: What do you do when your entire being opposes the task at hand?

#170

Post by methodover »

justizin wrote: post #141
ryandrake wrote: post #111

Oh boy, so I get to be the contrarian again. First of all, isn't it a bit dramatic to say "your entire being opposes" your task? It's not like you're out committing genocide or something. You're programming, and you have to work on a crappy programming task. Every programmer who ever worked a professional job has had to do this at some point. If the very fiber of your soul is wrapped up in your employer's MegaAccount…

you come pretty close to invoking godwin's law, here. if you depend on a place for compensation, then you should be interested in its' success, and if some bonehead (let's not pick on marketing, since it's not always them) has a stupid idea, and money is being wasted on you doing that, it's actually your responsibility to do something about it. per the law of supply and demand, it's also completely reasonable to leav…

> This is the statement of an unimaginative individual with no creative juices. I wouldn't employ you to sweep the floors.

Really? You need an imaginative, creative janitor?

I get that you disagree, but I feel like you've crossed the line into insult here.

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