Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult • Hacker News Board

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#161

Post by gaius » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 8:59 AM UTC

kijin wrote: post #98

cabalamat wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> this works out to $2800/month or $33600/year. Switzerland's per capita GDP is about USD 79000/year, so assuming 80% of the Swiss population are adults and citizens, this would cost about 34% of GDP, which may be unaffordable.

Define "unaffordable". It's really annoying that people say "it's unaffordable" to mean "we don't want to pay", when the phrase is supposed to mean "we can't pay, we don't have enough money". I understand why people don't want to part with money, but at least let's be honest. If you sort everyone from poorest to richest, and plot their incomes on a graph, basic income just means that the slope is flatter than before…

But if you plot the tax paid by each person, you reach a different conclusion.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#162

Post by sjwright » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 9:00 AM UTC

rndmize wrote: post #106

sjwright wrote: post #80

I've always liked the idea of a base salary for all citizens. However, this plan appears to set the base level far too high -- it needs to be barely enough to fund the most basic of life's essentials, and indexed to an inflation rate of essential commodities. Life on this salary needs to be difficult and unsatisfying. The model I imagine would also: * Be paid to all citizens from age zero. Which means it can replace…

I can't see how paying citizens from age zero could possibly be a good idea. Either the government will have control on how that money can be spent (through regulation or otherwise) or the parents will, and I wouldn't consider either case good. Requiring accreditation for services that can be bought with the kids money won't prevent people from corrupting or exploiting the system, only delay them. I also think that w…

There needs to be some incentive for tedious work to be done at a modest wage. Otherwise the supply of labor will crash through the floor.

As for accreditation of services, I agree to a limited extent. Personally I think government should -- where possible -- get out of the business of service delivery and focus on accreditation. The idea of a government selling pizza is absurd, but so is the idea of a government allowing a disgusting rat infested kitchen to sell pizza to the public. We effectively accredit vendors to sell food. The same model should work for education -- set minimum standards for everyone, then let the market decide.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#163

Post by Udo » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 9:01 AM UTC

seszett wrote: post #159

Udo wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If 50% of the population aren't allowed to vote, it's not a pure democracy.

It's easy to say after the facts, but if women aren't allowed to vote and aren't citizens, then 100% of citizens do vote. Most systems we call democracies don't consider their population under 18 as citizens, thus don't allow them to vote, and that's usually around 20% of population. Most also don't consider that immigrants should vote, and in the case of Switzerland that's another 20 or 25%. I'm obviously not saying…

I didn't imagine my statement would be so controversial. Granted, it's just my personal opinion, but if women aren't citizens that's not a democracy either.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#164

Post by WiseWeasel » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 9:08 AM UTC

danenania wrote: post #140

konstruktor wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One of the main questions about something like this is about who would do boring, low-paid work with this sort of basic income. I think that with basic income, this question would not make sense, and that's exactly the reason that I like the idea so much. The reason why people do boring, dirty and dangerous work for little money is that there are folks who have no skills that would enable them to get a more fulfill…

It could also act as a strong incentive for developing automatic and robotic solutions to these needs.

Either that or the development of robotic solutions to these needs will act as a strong incentive for the enactment of this type of program.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#165

Post by lmartel » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 9:08 AM UTC

xavi wrote: post #156

kijin wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Define "unaffordable". It's really annoying that people say "it's unaffordable" to mean "we don't want to pay", when the phrase is supposed to mean "we can't pay, we don't have enough money". I understand why people don't want to part with money, but at least let's be honest. If you sort everyone from poorest to richest, and plot their incomes on a graph, basic income just means that the slope is flatter than before…

I am all for more fair wealth distribution, but I don't see how this would be sustainable. With a basic income so high and higher taxes on the rich, what's the incentive to work for money? Hence, who would pay this? I think Georgism ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgism ), which doesn't tax income, but it only taxes land (so, not earned income) is a better approach to get a sustainable and more fair distribution of…

Frickin' everyone would. If someone offered you 30k/year basic income would you quit your cushy programming job, or would you buy more stuff?

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#166

Post by ZenoArrow » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 9:09 AM UTC

gaius wrote: post #160

marcamillion wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> With a decent basic income scheme, i.e. the basic needs of the people taken care of, the job market would probably flip: You would have to pay people very well for doing unpleasant work, and not so well for fulfilling jobs. This is an interesting premise. It would probably cause a lot of firms to be started, that compete to do those 'shitty jobs' - that could potentially drive the cost down and be done much better.…

Very interesting to watch from another country . That is the real reason politics moves so slowly, because the usual results of political experimentation is mass starvation.

Political experimentation usually leading to starvation... Have you got a high number of examples to back that up? I can only think of a handful.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#167

Post by huhtenberg » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 9:11 AM UTC

ashray wrote: post #154

huhtenberg wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stop with this senseless FUD, will you. A cup of coffee in Starbucks may cost $6. A cup of (a better) coffee in any cafe 2-3 CHF. Can of Coke is about the same if bought in a touristy place, but in a grocery shop it's a 2L bottle that will be that much. > Cost of living is extremely high. It's not. Cost of luxurious living is extremely high. In Geneva, in Zurich, perhaps in Bern and Basel. But you drive 10 minutes ou…

First of all, I didn't down vote you. Secondly, all I suggested was that the OP take cost of living into account for his calculations. This is hardly senseless considering that cost of living in most Swiss cities is higher than most tier 2 American cities. Swiss cities often rank at the top for most expensive cities in the world so yeah, I'd say cost of living is certainly on the high side. Of course they also rank a…

My tone is out of line, huh? How about your entire comment is factually wrong and yet you picked an advisory tone for it. The coke doesn't cost 6 franks, nor the cost of living is "extremely high".

Also, you should realize that people who might be interested in these 2500CHF will not be living in Zurich, which is more of an exception in terms of cost of living in Switzerland rather than the norm.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#168

Post by agilebyte » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 9:14 AM UTC

ivoras wrote: post #82

For those in the EU, there is currently an official (run by the European Comission) on-line petition in which EU citizens can vote for encouraging the application of the Basic Income idea at https://ec.europa.eu/citizens-initiative/REQ-ECI-2012-000028... . This is not a "let's apply this now!" thing, but a petition to study the ways and means of how it could be applied.

Just to add to that, these are the countries with the highest amount of statements of support (out of threshold level needed to be reached):

  Slovenia - 79.95%
  Croatia - 56.12%
  Belgium - 37.32%
  Hungary - 31.04%
  Netherlands - 26.85%
  Austria - 25.33%
  France - 25.3%
  Germany - 24.39%
  Spain - 22.41%

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#169

Post by m_mueller » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 9:14 AM UTC

tikhonj wrote: post #2

A Swiss franc is currently worth a little bit more than a dollar, so this works out to $2800/month or $33600/year. By US standards, this actually seems to be a good salary: significantly better than working full time at minimum wage. It would cover all my current expenses handily. Of course, I'm young and single but by no means frugal. (I find that the little costs involved in worrying about my expenses easily outwei…

As a Swiss I'm not completely opposed to the idea of basic income, I just think it's too early. Right now we still need most of the workforce to create our current level of wealth - our unemployed rate is pretty low, usually around 2-3%, and work efficiency is one of the best in the world - it's a well oiled machine where every cog still counts, including lower incomes. Even with the current GDP, paying that bill would be incredibly difficult, but I'd expect the GDP to even sink for some time, until positive effects can come in, making the whole thing a gamble with the well being of 8M people. Not worth it.

However, going some decades into the future the whole thing might look different. Given that we can manage to still gather the planets ressources without stagnating, uneducated jobs will become less and less important as more and more can be automated through robots, intelligent information systems such as Watson's successors and so on. At that point the ratio of revenue to salary will be extremely skewed towards highly educated jobs, making it (a) easier and (b) probably necessary to channel some of this wealth to insure everyone can keep up with education. Note that we already do that now through a wellfare system that allows anyone to get by and get a degree, even at the prestigous ETH Zurich (tuition 1400$/year). At some point a basic income may become cheaper than a welfare system, but that's not now.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#170

Post by 001sky » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 9:17 AM UTC

xavi wrote: post #156

kijin wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Define "unaffordable". It's really annoying that people say "it's unaffordable" to mean "we don't want to pay", when the phrase is supposed to mean "we can't pay, we don't have enough money". I understand why people don't want to part with money, but at least let's be honest. If you sort everyone from poorest to richest, and plot their incomes on a graph, basic income just means that the slope is flatter than before…

I am all for more fair wealth distribution, but I don't see how this would be sustainable. With a basic income so high and higher taxes on the rich, what's the incentive to work for money? Hence, who would pay this? I think Georgism ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgism ), which doesn't tax income, but it only taxes land (so, not earned income) is a better approach to get a sustainable and more fair distribution of…

you tax people on income, because they have the attachment to money they have not yet received. Also, it is a liquid payment, so the costs of re-distribution are lower as there is no illiquidity losses. If you tax property, then either you are taxing liquid income anyway, or you are forcing the sale of assets (the latter is inefficient, economically, because of asset specificty).