Earlier quoted context omitted.
Whoa there. Paypal loses nothing to fraud. Just like all the other middlemen, Visa, MC, etc., they shift their losses onto the merchants. The way this works out is that Mailpile files an answer to Paypal's RFI, Paypal reviews it and says something like "There's a 90 day hold on funds deposited to your account until you can demonstrate that you aren't high risk", Mailpile complies and everyone walks away happy. (Backg…
I think you misread what patio11 wrote. As he correctly points out, "Paypal eats 100% of the risk if the merchant doesn't [stay in business]" New companies fail before getting a product out the door all the time. It's a very real risk.
PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds
161–170 of 366 posts
Re: PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds
#162 Am I allowed to presell?
Yes, you are allowed to presell items as long as you follow these guidelines.
Off eBay presale requirements
If you sell items in an online store (not eBay), you must guarantee delivery
within 20 days from the date of purchase and make sure that the customer
knows they are buying a presale item.
[...]
If you are selling goods or services in an online store (not eBay), you may
be allowed to presell items but we may hold your money in a reserve
account or limit what you can do with your account to reduce the higher risks
associated with presale items.
Or as the ruder ones of us said in the 90s on Usenet: RTFM.https://www.paypal-businesscenter.com/content/presale-policy...
Re: PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds
#163Wow, I'm really surprised by the amount of snark on this thread aimed at mailpile. They are following IndieGoGo's standard process. For PayPal to take exception with them and single out their funds is ridiculous. If PayPal wants to start requiring IndieGoGo campaigns to submit business plans, they should work that out with the site, not an individual campaign, and certainly not after the whole thing is funded. This i…
Yes they make promises and there's no guarantee they'll deliver. That's the whole point of crowdfunding, it's like that for every other campaign. Why is PayPal singling out Mailpile?
Re: PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds
#164reading the comments, this thread is turning into a paypal bashing which it shouldn't. what happened is not paypal's fault or some insider attempt at stopping the project from happening as some laughable comments have suggested.
paypal's top priority is to their customers, not the merchant. if you look at this from their perspective this is the right move as what would happen if the project just took the money and never delivered?
asking them for a detailed list of `itemized budget and your development goal dates for your project` is something that any smart investor would ask for and they should have had this done already so i don't see why this is cause for concern.
Re: PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds
#165Earlier quoted context omitted.
Just don't keep BTC. I'm surprised the default method of using bitcoins isn't "I give send USD to my transfer agent, they make a BTC transfer to your transfer agent, and your transfer agent immediately deposits USD in your account", with the entire process occuring with a defined instantaneous exchange rate.
That's interesting! But isn't there any delay between currency exchange and an exchange fee as well?
Re: PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds
#166Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think you misread what patio11 wrote. As he correctly points out, "Paypal eats 100% of the risk if the merchant doesn't [stay in business]" New companies fail before getting a product out the door all the time. It's a very real risk.
Nope, Paypal only eats the risk if they release funds. They rarely release funds on high risk accounts, at least not without retaining a rolling deposit.
Re: PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds
#167Indulge me in a flight of fancy in which we pretend, for the sake of argument, that a) Paypal is run not by Snidely Whiplash clones but b) by smart geeks working with thin margins in a highly regulated industry where c) customers are at risk essentially never, d) merchants eat 100% of the risk if they stay in business, and e) Paypal eats 100% of the risk if the merchant doesn't. Why is Paypal very skeptical of pre-sa…
Whoa there. Paypal loses nothing to fraud. Just like all the other middlemen, Visa, MC, etc., they shift their losses onto the merchants. The way this works out is that Mailpile files an answer to Paypal's RFI, Paypal reviews it and says something like "There's a 90 day hold on funds deposited to your account until you can demonstrate that you aren't high risk", Mailpile complies and everyone walks away happy. (Backg…
In terms of predicting Paypal's disposition on this particular case, I think it's a little trickier than a 90 day rolling reserve, because the product doesn't exist and shipping is binary rather than mapping to the rolling window of binary events like a physical goods business. If they were selling trendy iPhone cases and had bitten off more orders than they could presently chew, then an X% rolling reserve for Y days would likely be sufficient to insulate against the risk of some orders not shipping. Software businesses can fail on day 91 in an explosive a fashion as they can on day 1, and it appears from the report of Paypal's communication that Paypal is aware of this and is disinclined to do a fractional rolling reserve absent shipping. One would assume that if they ship this business goes to fairly low-risk instantaneously [+] and a reserve is probably unnecessary at that point.
Ultimately that's up to Paypal rather than either of our guesses.
[+ Well, it would be low-risk with respect to new orders instantaneously after shipping. It might not be low-risk with respect to pre-orders for a while yet, as customers could suffer from buyer's remorse, be dissatisfied with the product as shipped, not remember the transaction, or engage in friendly fraud, at rates substantially higher than transactions with lower delay between purchase and delivery.]
Re: PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds
#168Earlier quoted context omitted.
But with Bitcoin, if you trust the merchant/recipient you can opt out of using escrow and transfer the money directly to him. With Paypal it's impossible.
This merchant offered Bitcoin. The vast majority of payors chose to use PayPal with its built-in buyer protection instead.
Re: PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds
#169Earlier quoted context omitted.
It is an escrow service because it allows the buyer to reverse the transaction.
It wouldn't kill paypal to have non-reversible transactions as long as this is made clear to the user.
If you haven't heard of it before, the May Scale of Monetary Hardness is a great way of thinking about this: http://stakeventures.com/articles/2012/03/07/the-may-scale-o... . If you're a payment intermediary, and you're delivering irreversible assets like gold coins or briefcases full of cash in exchange for very reversible payment methods like credit cards for personal checks, you will get horribly, horribly burnt by fraud, because you can deliver the gold coin and find out weeks later that your credit card was charged back. http://whatilearnedtoday.jameslarisch.com/?action=view&url=b... is a great example of this with Bitcoin and Paypal respectively.
It's not even about educating the user about irreversible transactions -- it's just that there's no way for Paypal to offer them unless customers fund their Paypal purchases by dropping off briefcases of cash and gold bullion at their local Paypal branch.
Re: PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds
#170Earlier quoted context omitted.
He is talking about using that currency as a way of being paid (= running his business), not for investing neither for speculating. N.B. maybe I'm wrong but according to this graph: http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/mtgoxUSD#rg360ztgSzm1g10zm2g... http://blockchain.info/charts/market-price Now bitcoin has half the value than in April (and, I known, 10x Jan value). Too volatile to use if your business IMHO.
Like it has been said a gazillion times already, you can get paid in USD if you want to (using Bitcoin behind the scenes). You get the same benefits as a merchant (no chargebacks, easy implementation, ridiculously small fees, countries: All), and without the annoying x10 yearly gains.