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Wikipedia Workers to Seek Union Recognition

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Re: Wikipedia Workers to Seek Union Recognition

#161

In EU I would form union even at 3 person company. There are all sorts of tax benefits. Union fees are usually exempt from tax and social and health insurance. In my country we make dinner (yearly union meeting), produce meeting notes and get about 50 euro per employee. Union also organizes trips for families, tax free... Worth asking AI about local lawx...

> In EU

Where, exactly?

> Union fees are usually exempt from tax

What do you mean? You pay taxes on other membership fees?

Re: Wikipedia Workers to Seek Union Recognition

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>median is higher in Germnay I cannot think of any standard by which this is true, certainly not by nominal or PPP income for either personal or household income. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income [2] https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/median-in...

Table on page 10: https://www.boeckler.de/data/downloads/IMK/FMM%20Konferenz%2... Not looking at households or disposable income here but at hourly wages.

I see. That paper is looking a median income from a PPP perspective but without accounting for taxes and transfers, which is a tiny bit unorthodox in this exact context which tries to get into the weeds slightly more than just standard PPP adjusted GDP per-capita or something like that. It's valid statistically, but typically if you're trying to adjust for cost of living it makes a lot of sense to use the amount of actual income the individuals have left over after paying taxes and receiving transfers from social programs. Otherwise you'll have a number which accounts for differences in prices but not differences in the proportion of "income" which is actually retained by the earner. This is what that wikipedia article I linked is reporting. Comparing two different countries with very different tax/social program policies with PPP adjustments but without tax/transfer adjustments is less than ideal.

It's not wrong, it's just not very useful. It's typically a more intermediary statistic rather than a final one when doing this type of comparison.

Re: Wikipedia Workers to Seek Union Recognition

#163
post #161

In EU I would form union even at 3 person company. There are all sorts of tax benefits. Union fees are usually exempt from tax and social and health insurance. In my country we make dinner (yearly union meeting), produce meeting notes and get about 50 euro per employee. Union also organizes trips for families, tax free... Worth asking AI about local lawx...

> In EU Where, exactly? > Union fees are usually exempt from tax What do you mean? You pay taxes on other membership fees?

As in you can subtract it from your taxable income, I assume. I think it's fairly normal (in this part of the world*).

Re: Wikipedia Workers to Seek Union Recognition

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Table on page 10: https://www.boeckler.de/data/downloads/IMK/FMM%20Konferenz%2... Not looking at households or disposable income here but at hourly wages.

I see. That paper is looking a median income from a PPP perspective but without accounting for taxes and transfers, which is a tiny bit unorthodox in this exact context which tries to get into the weeds slightly more than just standard PPP adjusted GDP per-capita or something like that. It's valid statistically, but typically if you're trying to adjust for cost of living it makes a lot of sense to use the amount of a…

Yes, comparisons are difficult between countries. With respect to unions and wages, not sure hourly wages are that bad a starting point - but happy to look at research there on differential impact. Adjusting for taxes and social programs also can create issues in terms of accounting for things accruing from those for the future (pay as you go pensions come to mind).

Re: Wikipedia Workers to Seek Union Recognition

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s in the collective best interest may not match with what’s in the individual best interest. Perhaps unions are more likely to be in the self interest of the below average employees, the ones with no negotiating power. The best school teachers are almost certainly being held back by their unions and the worst ones are getting a free pass. When I worked at a unionized place I was blocked from an opportunity my em…

The rising tide lifts all boats. Denying people agency and power in their negotiation by claiming they are "not as good as someone else" is antithetical to the struggle of labor - work deserves to be compensated fairly. >When I worked at a unionized place I was blocked from an opportunity my employer offered me because it was better than what the standard negotiated terms were Your union blocked this because your emp…

> Denying people agency and power in their negotiation by claiming they are "not as good as someone else" is antithetical to the struggle of labor - work deserves to be compensated fairly.

Isn't that kind of the point? If you're good at your job and the company knows it, you could threaten to take a job somewhere else if they don't give you a raise. When there is a union, you can't do that, and the leadership uses your negotiating power to demand the things they want, which there is no guarantee has any overlap with what you want. Unions frequently demand things like seniority rules or retirement benefits (because the most senior people and those closest to retirement control the union), and compromise your interests for theirs if you're a new hire.

> Your union blocked this because your employer was trying to break your unions negotiating power by separating your interests from the collective workforce.

The trouble is that your interests are separate from the collective workforce. The company is selling its products for as much as it can. If it's in a competitive industry then its profit margins are thin and most of its revenue is already going to suppliers and employees. For someone else to get a bigger piece, yours has to get smaller. That's the consequence of your own logic:

> If you don't want to protect your coworkers by negotiating with them, then you must be interested in exploiting them by negotiating against them. Labor is a zero sum game.

If the union leadership doesn't want you to get the opportunity then they must be interested in exploiting you by negotiating against you.

Re: Wikipedia Workers to Seek Union Recognition

#167
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The wikipedia atricle only cites american sources so that may be something unique to how US unions operate.

Cousins of American style bumping is definitely in employment law in the UK(where it is done by the employer instead of the employees and union). It also exists at least in Germany(sozialauswahl) where employees theoretically who could get chopped are given points to determine who to chop, where seniority is one of the ways to gain points, as well as age, as well as having children.

I don't think so in UK.

In UK to make someone redundant (ie fired not for cause) then the job has to be removed and only the holder of that job can be fired and not any other person.

Of course HR departments and consultants are paid to work around this

Re: Wikipedia Workers to Seek Union Recognition

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any company is free to hire whoever it cares at its own discretion, and in most (49/50) US states fire them without cause; perhaps due diligence is required of companies that are unionized to ensure that they are investing wisely in the labor they pay for, rather than accepting that all labor must be paid less on the argument that maybe it is of poorer quality than desired. If you work in a unionized workplace and ha…

> If you work in a unionized workplace and have complaints about a coworkers capability, your complaints should first be heard by your union because your union is the arbiter of your labor force, as per the contract you sign with said union. The question obviously being, what are you supposed to do if they fail to address it? Suppose the union leadership brought in a bunch of their own incompetent cronies and is now…

if you joined a non-democratic union to begin with, that's on you. This is a rare anomaly though and most unions have democratic processes you can engage with and bring the change

Re: Wikipedia Workers to Seek Union Recognition

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you work in a unionized workplace and have complaints about a coworkers capability, your complaints should first be heard by your union because your union is the arbiter of your labor force, as per the contract you sign with said union. The question obviously being, what are you supposed to do if they fail to address it? Suppose the union leadership brought in a bunch of their own incompetent cronies and is now…

if you joined a non-democratic union to begin with, that's on you. This is a rare anomaly though and most unions have democratic processes you can engage with and bring the change

It is a democratic union. There are 100 workers and 55 are the leadership's cronies who keep voting them back in. Classic democracy, two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.

Also, how do you get to pick which union to be in? One can get certified even if you voted against it, or already exist at the company where you want to work.

Re: Wikipedia Workers to Seek Union Recognition

#170
post #90

This is the same press release from the union as at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48663861 , and the same discussion points apply as there, including the fact that the press release is conflating 'Wikipedia Workers' and 'British-based employees at the Wikimedia Foundation'. The two are not the same. This conflation appears to be the fault of the union. Certainly the people who write Wikipedia well know the dif…

I used to work at a call center for a large (fortune 500) company. But that company did not sign my paychecks. It was a shell company with a different name, so that the company could not be held accountable when someone inevitably jumped from the roof.

Since then accountability sinks have stood out to me. I'm going to side with the Union on this one. And plus, unions are good.

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