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Spain has become one of Europe’s cheapest power markets

janrosenow.substack.com

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Re: Spain has become one of Europe’s cheapest power markets

#161

Post by ahartmetz »

zejn wrote: post #152
AndrewDucker wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If only they'd been able to build enough solar power to bring down the energy costs to the point where they could build solar.

They could also just split the Germany into multiple bidding zones, then north parts of Germany would have a lot of cheap wind power, similar as in Sweden.

Over the figurative dead body of Bavaria. They want cheap energy for their industry, they don't want wind power because it's ugly and bad for tourism, they will maybe accept a little well-hidden solar power, they don't want overland cables because they are ugly, and they don't want underground cables because they heat and dry out the ground. There is also some market distortion because energy is traded as if transfer capacity was unlimited, but when Bavaria buys cheap wind power that can't be moved, they still pay the cheap price but the energy is locally "replicated" at e.g. gas power stations, which is paid by... OK, I forgot, but it's a terrible system.

These "they" are different Bavarian persons and groups depending on topic, but the net effect is that Bavaria is Germany's energy bully.

Fortunately, several gigawatt-class HVDC lines are coming online this year. These somehow happened despite the protests, it's a minor miracle.

Re: Spain has become one of Europe’s cheapest power markets

#162

Post by mbid »

AndrewDucker wrote: post #143
mbid wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Solar panel production is extremely energy intensive. Germany has one of the highest energy costs in the world. So there was no way for Germany to maintain a competitive solar panel industry.

If only they'd been able to build enough solar power to bring down the energy costs to the point where they could build solar.

Not sure if you're serious, but this was not viable in the 2010s, or even today in Germany at all because of Germany's high latitude: No matter how efficient solar panels become, they will always be more economical to operate closer to the equator. Anyway, the Chinese factories for the most energy intensive parts of solar panel production mostly run on coal power.

Re: Spain has become one of Europe’s cheapest power markets

#163

Post by watwut »

pyrale wrote: post #35
miohtama wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm. Everyone should just disconnect Germany, let them freeze, and enjoy cheap electricity?

That's not my point. My point is that the price spread between EU electricity markets speaks more to the availability of interconnections than to the virtues of one country's electricity mix. The article gets to that conclusion because that's what it was looking for. The one question the article leaves open, but which is pretty relevant, is the question about who should pays for stability services to the grid.

Absent interconnectivity, the spread of the price is literally virtues of the electricity mix.

With interconnectivity, those virtues are less visible in local prices. They would be visible in earnings.

Re: Spain has become one of Europe’s cheapest power markets

#164

Post by ahartmetz »

Teever wrote: post #150
outime wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It will make a real difference if you're at the gym or in a very crowded place though.

Wouldn't the AC system adapt to the increased heat production from the extra people and maintain the temperature at 27'C?

The AC's temperature sensors won't feel your microclimate or body temperature. I'm all for 27°C in the general case, but yeah I'd prefer a few degrees lower in the gym or in a dense crowd.

Re: Spain has become one of Europe’s cheapest power markets

#165

Post by ahartmetz »

koolba wrote: post #119
jauntywundrkind wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spain also has pretty sensible legislation that is somewhat green. For large public areas the lowest allowed AC setting is 27°C / 81°F. Where-as in America you'll go to a mall and it'll be 65°F. https://www.catalannews.com/politics/item/spain-limits-air-c... Probably doesn't make a ton of difference. But I found that very respectable. It made me hopeful they have other basic green sensibilities.

> Spain also has pretty sensible legislation that is somewhat green. For large public areas the lowest allowed AC setting is 27°C / 81°F. As a red blooded American, this is the funniest thing I’ve seen all weekend.

You should try it, I find it rather pleasant. When I was in an office with per-room AC settings, I liked 27°C (shorts or light pants + T-shirt or short-sleeved shirt). When I was in Asia, I noticed that the setting was commonly 27°C. It seems to be only North America where "let's show nature who's boss" AC settings are common.

Re: Spain has become one of Europe’s cheapest power markets

#166

Post by leonidasrup »

zejn wrote: post #135
gregorygoc wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don’t underestimate the corrupt politics of some countries, especially Germany. There are individuals actively working against the global cost curve and trying to misallocate the capital to gas at the large scale. Katherine Reiche is the primary example. She’s pushing for building as much capacity for gas plants as possible, instead of choosing battery storage as the cheapest option.

Ha, yes, a lot of deniers/delayers are going on about how Germany "wasted" billion on renewables, when in fact they had a booming solar industry, which got nuked by politicians, who changed the policies, as can be seen in 39C3 video "Recharge your batteries with us". Was the subsidy system which was in effect in 2010's unsustainable? I think so, yeah. But the changed policies resulted in companies producing solar goi…

The billion spend on renewables in Germany were not "wasted", there were spend on the primary goal of the German Energiewende, to allow Germany exit nuclear electricity power production.

The 39C3 video "Recharge your batteries with us" is an emotional call to action "We Can Do It!" solar panels everywhere, without showing the other backbone of the German electric grid: the German gas and coal power plants.

I would recommend other CCC video:

"Deaths per TWh" The Price of Energy and Reducing CO2 Emissions

https://media.ccc.de/v/Camp2019-10193-deaths_per_twh

Re: Spain has become one of Europe’s cheapest power markets

#167

Post by mbid »

zejn wrote: post #152
AndrewDucker wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If only they'd been able to build enough solar power to bring down the energy costs to the point where they could build solar.

They could also just split the Germany into multiple bidding zones, then north parts of Germany would have a lot of cheap wind power, similar as in Sweden.

> similar as in Sweden

Sweden's electricity is ~40% hydro, ~27% nuclear and ~23% wind. How is this in any way comparable to Northern Germany?

Re: Spain has become one of Europe’s cheapest power markets

#168

Post by mhh__ »

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #154
mhh__ wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've basically only just seen this stuff started to be discussed critically in the media in fairly recent years. not including $work discussions with energy traders.

Why are you hearing it discussed critically? It's a great British innovation that has demostrably made the world a better place and provided the UK (and others who have copied it) with big investments in cheaper and cleaner energy.

Recent piece in critic magazine by Chris bayliss for example.

Re: Spain has become one of Europe’s cheapest power markets

#169

Post by zejn »

mbid wrote: post #167
zejn wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They could also just split the Germany into multiple bidding zones, then north parts of Germany would have a lot of cheap wind power, similar as in Sweden.

> similar as in Sweden Sweden's electricity is ~40% hydro, ~27% nuclear and ~23% wind. How is this in any way comparable to Northern Germany?

> similar as in Sweden

-- which has 4 bidding zones.

Re: Spain has become one of Europe’s cheapest power markets

#170

Post by leonidasrup »

gregorygoc wrote: post #98
PaulKeeble wrote: post #7

The past few years has also had Solar continuing to decrease in price so its increasingly going to be the primary choice. On top of that battery prices have been plummeting too so that now Solar + battery is cheaper than other options like Nuclear and especially Gas. Most of the EU will be running on Wind and Solar in the coming years, its a change that is now rapidly occuring based entirely on the rare economics. So…

Don’t underestimate the corrupt politics of some countries, especially Germany. There are individuals actively working against the global cost curve and trying to misallocate the capital to gas at the large scale. Katherine Reiche is the primary example. She’s pushing for building as much capacity for gas plants as possible, instead of choosing battery storage as the cheapest option.

As much as we could discuss the independence of Katherine Reiche from gas industry, how much new gas power plants could be replaced by battery storage? Not much. The new gas power plants will be the backup of the electric production after Germany shuts down coal power plants. This backup, or call it insurance, is for weeks long times when wind and solar don't deliver enough, the famous German Dunkerflaute. There are research projects for long duration energy storage systems, but building using current battery storage technology for week long Dunkerflaute that occurs once a decade event would be extremely expensive.

You have to have a backup, the devastating effects of week long electric blackout in winter in a future Germany heating homes with heat pumps, would be comparable with a major war.

Will there by push, after the new gas power plants will be build, to use them not only as backup, but as gas peakers? Probably yes, but this dependents on future CO2 emission costs and natural gas costs.

Even the previous government was planing expansions of gas power plants.

https://www.ingenieur.de/technik/fachbereiche/energie/12-gw-...

Personally, I think Germany should have not exit nuclear energy production but expand it, but this error was made in 2000s and Germany has to live with the consequences.

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