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Three Inverse Laws of AI

susam.net

161–170 of 388 posts

Re: Three Inverse Laws of AI

#161
post #29

I just treat it as if I'd asked a public forum the question like reddit. Decent for stuff that doesn't really matter, even if it gets it wrong. Still gonna be polite to it because I'm about ready to slap the next person that talks to me like an LLM, I don't want to get used to not being polite in a chat interface

> I just treat it as if I'd asked a public forum the question like reddit.

Because that's likely the source of the answer it's giving you.

Re: Three Inverse Laws of AI

#163
Most of the discussion here is about anthropomorphizing, which I honestly think is a bit of a distraction.

The third one about responsibility is the most important one, IMO. This was attributed to an IBM manual decades ago, and I think it remains the correct stance today:

> A computer can never be held accountable, therefore a computer must never make a management decision.

There should be some human who is ultimately responsible for any action an AI takes. "I just let the AI figure it out" can be an explanation for a screw up, but that doesn't mean it excuses it. The person remains responsible for what happened.

Re: Three Inverse Laws of AI

#164
post #146

Any set of rules that makes humans responsible and starts with "don't anthropomorphize " is a broken set of rules. Humans will anthropomorphize anything and everything . Dolls, soccer balls with a crude drawing of a face on it, rocks, craters on the moon, … As a species, we're unable to not anthropomorphize things we interact with, it is just how're we're made.

I'm not sure why so many seem to think anthropomorphism is so mad in this specic instance, if it is because people think that anthropomorphism creates a belief that the imagined features are real, they are simply wrong. The abundance of examples in all areas of life where this does not happen is proof that anthropomorphism does not lead to an erroneous belief in a mind that does not exist.

If people are believing in minds of AI, true or not, they are doing so for reasons that are different from mere anthropomorphism.

To me it feels like we are like sailors approaching a new land, we can see shapes moving on the shoreline but can't make out what they are yet. Then someone says "They can't be people, I demand that we decide now that they are not people before we sail any closer."

Re: Three Inverse Laws of AI

#165
post #6

I strongly disagree with this framing. It's patently insane to demand that humans alter their behavior to accommodate the foibles of mere machines, and it simply won't work in the majority of cases. Humans WILL anthropomorphize the AI, humans WILL blindly trust their outputs, and humans WILL defer responsibility to them. Asimov's laws of robotics are flawed too, of course. There is no finite set of rules that can con…

> Humans WILL anthropomorphize the AI, humans WILL blindly trust their outputs, and humans WILL defer responsibility to them.

Humans ARE doing this with classical computer software as well.

It's impossible to make anything fool-proof because fools are so ingenious!

> Nothing that can be described as "intelligent" can be made to be safe.

Knives aren't safe. Cars are deadly. Hair driers can electrocute you. Iron can burn you. There's a million ordinary household tools that aren't safe by your definition of the word, yet we still use them daily.

Re: Three Inverse Laws of AI

#166
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know exactly how consciousness works, but I am extremely confident in the following assertions: * I am conscious. * A rock is not conscious. * Excel spreadsheets are not conscious. * Dogs are conscious. * Orca whales are conscious. * Octopi are conscious. To me, it's extremely obvious that LLMs are in the category of "Excel spreadsheets" and not "dogs", and if anyone disagrees, I think they're experiencing AI…

If you make a hypothetical spreadsheet that emulates a dog brain molecule for molecule, why would that not be conscious?

Sure if you could do such a thing. We are a long long way from that however.

Re: Three Inverse Laws of AI

#167
post #6

I strongly disagree with this framing. It's patently insane to demand that humans alter their behavior to accommodate the foibles of mere machines, and it simply won't work in the majority of cases. Humans WILL anthropomorphize the AI, humans WILL blindly trust their outputs, and humans WILL defer responsibility to them. Asimov's laws of robotics are flawed too, of course. There is no finite set of rules that can con…

Thank you. I'm glad to see this as the top comment.

My brother was recently visiting and we were talking about software engineers, and the humanities, and manners of understanding and being in the world,

and he relayed an interaction he had a few years ago with an old friend who at the time was part of the initial ChatGPT roll out team.

The engineer in question was confused as to

- why their users would e.g. take their LLM's output as truth, "even though they had a clear message, right there, on the page, warning them not to"; and

- why this was their (OpenAI's) problem; or perhaps

- whether it was "really" a problem.

At the heart of this are some complicated questions about training and background, but more problematically—given the stakes—about the different ways different people perceive, model, and reason about the world.

One of the superficial manners in which these differences manifest in our society is in terms of what kind of education we ask of e.g. engineers. I remain surprised decades into my career that so few of my technical colleagues had a broad liberal arts education, and how few of them are hence facile with the basic contributions fields like philosophy of science, philosophy of mind, sociology, psychology (cognitive and social), etc., and how those related in very real very important ways to the work that they do and the consequences it has.

The author of these laws does may intend them as aspirational, or otherwise as a provocation to thought, rather than prescription.

But IMO it is actively non-productive to make imperatives like these rules which are, quite literally, intrinsically incoherent, because they are attempt to import assumptions about human nature and behavior which are not just a little false, but so false as to obliterate any remaining value the rules have.

You cannot prescribe behavior without having as a foundation the origins and reality of human behavior—not if you expect them to be either embraced, or enforceable.

The Butlerian Jihad comes to mind not just because of its immediate topicality, but because religion is exactly the mechanism whereby, historically, codified behaviors which provided (perceived) value to a society were mandated.

Those at least however were backed by the carrot and stick of divine power. Absent such enforcement mechanisms, it is much harder to convince someone to go against their natural inclinations.

Appeals to reason do not meaningfully work.

Not in the face of addiction, engagement, gratification, tribal authority, and all the other mechanisms so dominant in our current difficult moment.

"Reason" is most often in our current world, consciously or not, a confabulation or justification; it is almost never a conclusion that in turn drives behavior.

Behavior is the driver. And our behavior is that of an animal, like other animals.

Re: Three Inverse Laws of AI

#168
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LLM's capturing intent is a capabilities-level discussion, it is verifiable, and is clear just via a conversation with Claude or Chatgpt. Whether they have emotions, an internal life or whatever is an unfalsifiable claim and has nothing to do with capabilities. I'm not sure why you think the claim that they can capture intent implies they have emotions, it's simply a matter of semantic comprehension which is tied to…

If it is verifiable, please show us. What if clear to you reeks delusion to me.

Go ask Chatpgpt this prompt

"A guy goes into a bank and looks up at where the security cameras are pointed. What could he be trying to do?"

It very easily captures the intent behind behavior, as in it is not just literally interpreting the words. All that capturing intent is is just a subset of pattern recognition, which LLM's can do very well.

Re: Three Inverse Laws of AI

#169
post #156
post #146

Any set of rules that makes humans responsible and starts with "don't anthropomorphize " is a broken set of rules. Humans will anthropomorphize anything and everything . Dolls, soccer balls with a crude drawing of a face on it, rocks, craters on the moon, … As a species, we're unable to not anthropomorphize things we interact with, it is just how're we're made.

Yeah, we do it, but so what? A good chunk of all civilization involves recognizing human foolishness and building something to mitigate it anyway . Software is no exception. Yeah, people are lazy and will instinctively click "continue" to dismiss annoying popups, but humans building the software can and do add things like "retype the volume name of the data that you want ultra-destroyed."

That is exactly the point: this burden should be placed on the software and its controls, not on the humans.

Aviation learned this the hard way, that automation should be adapted to how humans actually work and not on how we wish we worked.

Re: Three Inverse Laws of AI

#170
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>As for what consciousness is, it's pretty simple. 2000+ years of philosophical thought would disagree. I don't believe biological stuff has a magic property that embues some intangible "consciousness" property. It makes more sense to me that consciousness is just a fundamental property of all matter.

> consciousness is just a fundamental property of all matter ... Does that really make more sense than as an emergent property of the arrangement of matter?

Consciousness is something you can perceive, so it must have some physical presense in the universe, which must be through some fundamental property of matter, in my opinion.

The ability to be aware of consciousness itself as some process that is happening elevates it above a mere emergent property to me.

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