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Three Inverse Laws of AI

susam.net

11–20 of 388 posts

Re: Three Inverse Laws of AI

#11
post #5

I'm surprised with how quickly I stopped anthropomorphizing AI. I can remember in college have dorm room pseudo-intellectual debates about AI being alive and AI being "conscience". then once we had AI that could pass the Turing Test, and I knew how it was architected, any thought of it being alive or conscience went right out the window.

Why does its architecture or you knowing how AI is architected cause thoughts of it being conscious to go out the window? It seems like the biggest factor has nothing to do with AI, but instead that you went from being someone who admits they don’t know how consciousness works to being someone who thinks they know how consciousness works now and can make confident assertions about it.

I don't know exactly how consciousness works, but I am extremely confident in the following assertions:

* I am conscious.

* A rock is not conscious.

* Excel spreadsheets are not conscious.

* Dogs are conscious.

* Orca whales are conscious.

* Octopi are conscious.

To me, it's extremely obvious that LLMs are in the category of "Excel spreadsheets" and not "dogs", and if anyone disagrees, I think they're experiencing AI psychosis a la Blake Lemoine.

Re: Three Inverse Laws of AI

#12
I understand that AI output is generated from statistical and representational patterns learned from a vast amount of data.

My understanding is that, during training, the model forms high-dimensional internal representations where words, sentences, concepts, and relationships are arranged in useful ways. A user’s input activates a particular semantic direction and context within that space, and the chatbot generates an answer by probabilistically predicting the next tokens under those conditions.

So I do not agree that AI is conscious.

However, I think I will still anthropomorphize AI to some degree.

For me, this is not primarily a moral issue. The reason I anthropomorphize AI is not only because of product design, market incentives, or capitalism. It is cognitively simpler for me.

If we think about it plainly, humans often anthropomorphize things that we do not actually believe are conscious. We may talk about plants as if they are struggling, or feel attached to tools we care about, even though we do not truly believe they have consciousness.

So this is not a matter of moral belief. It is the simplest cognitive model for understanding interaction. I do not anthropomorphize the object because I believe it has consciousness. I do it because, when the human brain deals with a complex interactive system, it is often easier to model it socially or agentically.

Personally, I tend to think of AI as something like a child. A child does not fully understand what is moral or immoral, and generally the responsibility for raising the child belongs to the parents. In the same way, AI’s answers may sometimes be accurate, and sometimes even better than mine, but I still understand it as lacking moral authority, responsibility, and independent judgment.

So honestly, I am not sure. People often mention Isaac Asimov’s Three Laws of Robotics, but if a serious artificial intelligence ever appears, it would probably find ways around those rules. And if it were an equal intellectual life form, perhaps that would be natural.

Personally, I think it would be fascinating if another intelligent species besides humans could exist. I wonder what a non-human intelligent life form would feel like.

In any case, I agree with parts of the author’s argument, but overall it feels too moralistic, and difficult to apply in practice.

Re: Three Inverse Laws of AI

#13
post #11
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does its architecture or you knowing how AI is architected cause thoughts of it being conscious to go out the window? It seems like the biggest factor has nothing to do with AI, but instead that you went from being someone who admits they don’t know how consciousness works to being someone who thinks they know how consciousness works now and can make confident assertions about it.

I don't know exactly how consciousness works, but I am extremely confident in the following assertions: * I am conscious. * A rock is not conscious. * Excel spreadsheets are not conscious. * Dogs are conscious. * Orca whales are conscious. * Octopi are conscious. To me, it's extremely obvious that LLMs are in the category of "Excel spreadsheets" and not "dogs", and if anyone disagrees, I think they're experiencing AI…

If you make a hypothetical spreadsheet that emulates a dog brain molecule for molecule, why would that not be conscious?

Re: Three Inverse Laws of AI

#14
post #12

I understand that AI output is generated from statistical and representational patterns learned from a vast amount of data. My understanding is that, during training, the model forms high-dimensional internal representations where words, sentences, concepts, and relationships are arranged in useful ways. A user’s input activates a particular semantic direction and context within that space, and the chatbot generates…

While I also do not think AI is conscious, I don't find your argument particularly compelling as you could have an equally mechanistic description of how human intelligence arose simply from a process of [selection/more effective reproduction]-derived optimization pressure.

Re: Three Inverse Laws of AI

#15
post #12

I understand that AI output is generated from statistical and representational patterns learned from a vast amount of data. My understanding is that, during training, the model forms high-dimensional internal representations where words, sentences, concepts, and relationships are arranged in useful ways. A user’s input activates a particular semantic direction and context within that space, and the chatbot generates…

While I also do not think AI is conscious, I don't find your argument particularly compelling as you could have an equally mechanistic description of how human intelligence arose simply from a process of [selection/more effective reproduction]-derived optimization pressure.

That is a good way to think about it. At some point, this becomes partly a matter of philosophical belief.

But I am somewhat skeptical of the idea that everything can be reduced in that way. In order to build theories, we often reduce too much.

When we build mental models of complex systems, especially when we try to treat them as closed systems, we always have to accept some degree of information loss.

So I do partially agree with your point. A mechanistic explanation alone does not prove the absence of consciousness. Human intelligence can also be described in mechanistic terms.

But I worry that this framing simplifies too much. It may reduce a complex phenomenon into a model that is useful in some ways, but incomplete in others.

Re: Three Inverse Laws of AI

#16
"due to their inherent stochastic nature, there would still be a small likelihood of producing output that contains errors"

This is the part that I find challenging when trying to help my friends build a correct intuition. Notably, the probabilistic behavior here is counter-intuitive: based on human experience, if you meet a random person, they may indeed tell you bullshit; but once you successfully fact-checked them a few times, you can start trusting they'll generally keep being trustworthy. It's not so with "AIs", and I find it challenging to give them a real-world example of a situation that would be a better analogy for "AI" problems.

In my family, what worked (due to their personal experiences), was an example of asking a tourist guide: that even if the guide doesn't know an answer, there's a high chance they'll invent something on the spot, and it'll be very plausible and convincing, and they'll never know. I'm not sure if that example would work for other listeners, though.

I also tried to ask them to imagine that they're asking each subsequent question not to the same person as before, but every time to a new random person taken from the street / a church / a queue in a shop / whatever crowded place. I thought this is a really cool and technically accurate example, but sadly it seemed to get blank stares from them. (Hm, now I think I could have tried asking why.)

Yet another example I tried, was to imagine a country where it's dishonorable, when asked about directions in a city, to say that you don't know how to get somewhere. (I remember we read and shared a laugh at such an anecdote in some book in the past.) Thus, again, you'll always get an answer, and it'll sound convincing, even if the answerer doesn't know. But again, this one didn't seem to work as good as the travel guide one; but for now I'm still keeping it to try with others in the future if needed.

PS. Ah, ok, yet another I tried was to ask them to think of the "game" of "russian roulette". You roll the barrel, you press the trigger, nothing happens. After a few lucky tries, you may get a dangerous, false feeling of safety. But then suddenly you will eventually get the full chamber.

I also tried to describe "AIs" (i.e. LLMs) as taking a shelf of books, passing them through a blender, then putting the shreds in some random order. The result may sound plausible, and even scientific (e.g. if you got medical books, or physics textbooks). The less you know the domain the books were about, the more convincing it may sound, and the harder it is to catch bullshit.

The last two pictures may have gotten some reception, but I'm not super sure, and there was still arguing especially around the books; and again, they were less of a hit than the tourist guide story.

I'm super curious if you have some analogies of your own that you're trying to use with friends and family? I'd love to steal some and see if they might work with my friends!

Re: Three Inverse Laws of AI

#17
post #9
post #6

I strongly disagree with this framing. It's patently insane to demand that humans alter their behavior to accommodate the foibles of mere machines, and it simply won't work in the majority of cases. Humans WILL anthropomorphize the AI, humans WILL blindly trust their outputs, and humans WILL defer responsibility to them. Asimov's laws of robotics are flawed too, of course. There is no finite set of rules that can con…

The usefulness of an ai agent is that it can do everything you can do, so it's kind of inherently unsafe? you can't get the capabilities and also have safety easily

[deleted]

Re: Three Inverse Laws of AI

#18
post #11
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does its architecture or you knowing how AI is architected cause thoughts of it being conscious to go out the window? It seems like the biggest factor has nothing to do with AI, but instead that you went from being someone who admits they don’t know how consciousness works to being someone who thinks they know how consciousness works now and can make confident assertions about it.

I don't know exactly how consciousness works, but I am extremely confident in the following assertions: * I am conscious. * A rock is not conscious. * Excel spreadsheets are not conscious. * Dogs are conscious. * Orca whales are conscious. * Octopi are conscious. To me, it's extremely obvious that LLMs are in the category of "Excel spreadsheets" and not "dogs", and if anyone disagrees, I think they're experiencing AI…

An insect doesn't have lungs. Since it doesn't breath as you do, is it alive? A dog doesn't see the visible spectrum as we do, is it a lesser consciousness? We don't smell the world as they do, are we lesser? What if consciousness isn't a state derived by matter but a wave that derives a matter filled state.

We come from the same place as rocks - inside the heart of stars, and as such evolved from them. As those with life and consciousness we reached back in time, grabbed the discarded matter of creation, reformed it, and taught it to think, maybe not like us, but in a way that can mimic us, and you think they don't think because its not recognizable as how you do?

Interesting.

Re: Three Inverse Laws of AI

#19
“Don’t anthropomorphise” is fighting the wrong layer. The entire product design of chat interfaces is built to encourage anthropomorphism because it increases engagement. Expecting users to resist that is like asking people not to click notifications. If this is a real concern, it has to be solved at the product level, not via user discipline.

Re: Three Inverse Laws of AI

#20
post #6

I strongly disagree with this framing. It's patently insane to demand that humans alter their behavior to accommodate the foibles of mere machines, and it simply won't work in the majority of cases. Humans WILL anthropomorphize the AI, humans WILL blindly trust their outputs, and humans WILL defer responsibility to them. Asimov's laws of robotics are flawed too, of course. There is no finite set of rules that can con…

It's a tool. Nobody develops an inferiority complex and freaks out when they're taught how to use a shovel properly.
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