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DeepSeek V4 – almost on the frontier

simonwillison.net

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Re: DeepSeek V4 – almost on the frontier

#161

Post by nullstyle »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #159
oneseven wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're probably worried about liability. Let's say that Oracle finds out you reverse engineered their DB using Gemini. You can be sure they will sue Google. Not just for providing the tools, but you could make the argument that it's actually Gemini doing the reverse engineering, and on Google's hardware no less.

Let's say that Oracle finds out you reverse engineered their DB using IDA Pro. Would you expect Oracle to sue Hex Rays? I don't understand why everything changes as soon as an LLM is involved. An LLM is just software.

If they thought they would succeed, no doubt oracle would sue. I expect bad behavior from multinationals, especially oracle

Re: DeepSeek V4 – almost on the frontier

#162

Post by cassianoleal »

pedrosorio wrote: post #147
cassianoleal wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure that can happen but it hasn’t been my experience. I just spent a whole day using it for some pretty hefty refactors, many rounds of back-and-forths, thousands of lines of code changes, reviews, investigations, many subagents running parallel tasks, the works. Total cost $0.95, altogether. I had attempted this with Opus 4.6 in the past and it burned through the $10 budget I’d given it before it returned from my i…

What harness do you use?

Mostly OpenCode but I've been experimenting with Pi a bit lately.

I use Agent Hive [0] for more complex tasks. It sends off subagents with models and parameters I can configure for each different agent (i.e. a low-temp coder, a higher temp with some top_k / top_p for research and architecture, etc).

[0] https://github.com/rretsiem/opencode-hive

Re: DeepSeek V4 – almost on the frontier

#163

Post by ignoramous »

lolpython wrote: post #157
ignoramous wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> even got a warning on my OpenAI account Edit: https://chatgpt.com/cyber

> https://openai.com/cyber that link 404s

Yikes. Thx. It is: https://chatgpt.com/cyber

For enterprises: https://openai.com/form/enterprise-trusted-access-for-cyber/

Announcements:

Introducing Trusted Access for Cyber, https://openai.com/index/trusted-access-for-cyber/ (Feb 2026)

Trusted access for the next era of cyber defense, https://openai.com/index/scaling-trusted-access-for-cyber-de... (Apr 2026)

Re: DeepSeek V4 – almost on the frontier

#164

Post by 7e »

piker wrote: post #129

Jensen has a point. I believe these were trained and run on Huawei chips. The Nvidia embargo may backfire on American leadership as necessity gives way to invention.

The embargo won't backfire, because any delay of China's development was worth it to the US. The situation was never, "China wasn't developing AI chips, now it is", it was always, "China IS developing their own AI chips, let's just slow them down as much as we can."

Re: DeepSeek V4 – almost on the frontier

#165

Post by cassianoleal »

cheshire_cat wrote: post #81
cassianoleal wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure that can happen but it hasn’t been my experience. I just spent a whole day using it for some pretty hefty refactors, many rounds of back-and-forths, thousands of lines of code changes, reviews, investigations, many subagents running parallel tasks, the works. Total cost $0.95, altogether. I had attempted this with Opus 4.6 in the past and it burned through the $10 budget I’d given it before it returned from my i…

Sounds promising, thanks for your report. I didn't want to say that they're not cheaper to run, artificial analysis also shows that they're cheaper. My main point was about it being important to also look at token efficiency, not only cost per token, to get the full picture.

I agree! I don't find Claude models to be particularly efficient anyway though. Maybe when running through Claude Code? I don't know, I tried it a while back but it didn't suit me and I kept hitting bugs so I dropped it in favour of something that does something closer to what I want rather than what the provider wants!

Re: DeepSeek V4 – almost on the frontier

#167

Post by lostdog »

gordonhart wrote: post #154
sanex wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have an enterprise cursor account so I can try all the mainstream models. Using composer 2 on our own code which I obviously have the source code for I couldn't get it to turn on a debug flag to bypass license checks while I was troubleshooting something. Infuriating. It was like that old Patrick from SpongeBob meme. I don't understand why we would turn the models into law enforcement officers. Things that are ill…

> I don't understand why we would turn the models into law enforcement officers It's a simple corporate risk minimization strategy. Just look at how universally despised Grok is on HN. Not because it's a bad model, but because it has less aggressive alignment which means it can be coaxed into saying things that get Xai pilloried here and elsewhere.

Grok is despised because it has more aggressive alignment.

Re: DeepSeek V4 – almost on the frontier

#168

Post by jerojero »

100ms wrote: post #108
Havoc wrote: post #97

This gives me hope that when the subsidization circus ends and everyone is on pure usage then it won't be entirely exclusionary to mere mortals who don't have $200pm budgets.

By the time the dust settles I wouldn't be surprised if personal interactive usage couldn't even be had for under $200. I can't fit my modelling of the serving costs of these things to any public reporting, even the more bearish examples

Not a lot of people have this budget, and I'm not sure how many people with that type of cash are also interested in paying it for AI.

Of course, this is fine for people in the bay area earning hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. But then your client base becomes so reduced its hard to justify the valuation these companies have.

These AI companies are not hyped so much because they will offer a luxury product, they're valued because they're supposed to "change the world" which luxury does not do.

Re: DeepSeek V4 – almost on the frontier

#169

Post by wolttam »

deaux wrote: post #14

I'm surprised that people here don't care at all about these models openly training on your data, especially if you use them straight from the model developer. Whereas things like "GitHub now automatically opts everyone into using their code for model training" get hundreds of justifiably angry comments, I never see this brought up anymore on posts like these talking about using Chinese models through OpenRouter. Thi…

At this point, that's kind of the reason I use open-weight models through the official providers when I can now.

There's some use cases I won't use a hosted model for, and will only do self hosted.

Otherwise, if they're going to keep releasing open-weight models, I'm going to keep giving them data.

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