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DeepSeek V4 – almost on the frontier

simonwillison.net

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Re: DeepSeek V4 – almost on the frontier

#121

Post by johndough »

segmondy wrote: post #119
cheshire_cat wrote: post #69

While the cost are lower than frontier models there are two factors that make DS4 Pro and K2.6 not as cheap as they might look. For DS4 Pro there's a discount going on for the official API, which sometimes gets overlooked and mixed up in discussions. Simon uses the full price in the comparison, so that's not an issue here. The other issue is that DS4 Pro and K2.6 often use way more reasoning tokens than the frontier…

This is very false DS4 is super cheap. I would advise to begin by reading their release paper. https://huggingface.co/deepseek-ai/DeepSeek-V4-Pro/blob/main... They introduce very novel methods to improve long context efficiency and attention. HCA & mCH. It requires only 27% of flops for inference and 10% for KV cache than v3.2. This makes it super efficient. Think of this. For flops, we can now serve more than 3x the…

> I'm running this locally.

Impressive! What is your setup? Are you running the full DeepSeek V4 Pro, or V4 Flash?

Re: DeepSeek V4 – almost on the frontier

#123

Post by Havoc »

100ms wrote: post #108
Havoc wrote: post #97

This gives me hope that when the subsidization circus ends and everyone is on pure usage then it won't be entirely exclusionary to mere mortals who don't have $200pm budgets.

By the time the dust settles I wouldn't be surprised if personal interactive usage couldn't even be had for under $200. I can't fit my modelling of the serving costs of these things to any public reporting, even the more bearish examples

Comes down to what you mean by interactive usage. Most of chat & say openclaw usage is already within self-host range so no need to spend 200 a month on that.

High end SOTA coding is harder, but even there I suspect a mix of usage based strong models and selfhost small is viable if necessary.

Re: DeepSeek V4 – almost on the frontier

#124

Post by Oras »

kroaton wrote: post #103
Oras wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tried it for two tasks using Claude Code, on max effort. 1. Web platform, asking it to analyse a feature to create reports, and coming up with better solution and better UX. it did great, I would say on par with Sonnet 4.6 or even opus considering the thinking and explanation 2. Mac app with some basic functionality, it did well from functional perspective but then I used Opus 4.7 to evaluate and suggest improvemen…

Claude Code poisons non-anthropic models in usage. We found this out when the code was leaked. Use a fork or OpenCode/pi-coding-agent

Mind sending where you found this in the leaked code?

Re: DeepSeek V4 – almost on the frontier

#125

Post by weiliddat »

halfwhey wrote: post #118
naaqq wrote: post #80

DeepSeek’s official API has a cache hit rate of over 99% if you use it continuously within the same codebase for long sessions, so it’s much cheaper than frontier models. I have an example of 200M token session in claude code.

Might be a dumb question but do you have to read the files in the same order in new sessions to ensure the correct prefix for the cache?

Also curious. With tool calls reading/searching different files, possible compacting reading a large codebase / long threads, I can't imagine how you hit 99% cache rate.

Re: DeepSeek V4 – almost on the frontier

#126

Post by naaqq »

halfwhey wrote: post #118
naaqq wrote: post #80

DeepSeek’s official API has a cache hit rate of over 99% if you use it continuously within the same codebase for long sessions, so it’s much cheaper than frontier models. I have an example of 200M token session in claude code.

Might be a dumb question but do you have to read the files in the same order in new sessions to ensure the correct prefix for the cache?

Sorry, I was wrong here. I meant a single long session. And there’s no compression, the 1M context is only half used.

Re: DeepSeek V4 – almost on the frontier

#127

Post by [deleted] »

halfwhey wrote: post #118
naaqq wrote: post #80

DeepSeek’s official API has a cache hit rate of over 99% if you use it continuously within the same codebase for long sessions, so it’s much cheaper than frontier models. I have an example of 200M token session in claude code.

Might be a dumb question but do you have to read the files in the same order in new sessions to ensure the correct prefix for the cache?

[deleted]

Re: DeepSeek V4 – almost on the frontier

#128

Post by WatchDog »

halfwhey wrote: post #118
naaqq wrote: post #80

DeepSeek’s official API has a cache hit rate of over 99% if you use it continuously within the same codebase for long sessions, so it’s much cheaper than frontier models. I have an example of 200M token session in claude code.

Might be a dumb question but do you have to read the files in the same order in new sessions to ensure the correct prefix for the cache?

Yes, you have to use the same session, I guess you could load up a bunch of context, then fork the session into a few different tasks, although I haven't tried it.

Re: DeepSeek V4 – almost on the frontier

#130

Post by dnnddidiej »

bwat49 wrote: post #93
taffydavid wrote: post #21

I tried deepseek v4 through open code at the weekend. I'm a daily Claude/Claude code user. I tried to build something simple and while it got the job done the thinking displayed did not fill me with confidence. It was pages and pages of "actually no", "hang on", "wait that makes no sense". It was like the model was having a breakdown. Bear in mind open code was also new to me so I could be just seeing thinking where…

> "actually no", "hang on", "wait that makes no sense" Claude does the same thing, claude code just hides the thinking now

I usually like the answers generated by those flows.
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