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The EU still wants to scan your private messages and photos

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Re: The EU still wants to scan your private messages and photos

#161

Post by latexr »

afh1 wrote: post #126

Where are all those "as an EU citizen" commenters? You are but a subject of an ultra-national government whose sole objective is ever increased control over your life and euros.

As a EU citizen, it pisses me off that the US is (with others outside the EU) trying this hard to lobby to undermine our democracy and freedom of speech.

https://digitalcourage.social/@echo_pbreyer/1162053712243153...

And I’d still take this clusterfuck over the alternative current state of the US. At least this situation we can (and have been) striking down, despite all the naysayers on HN. Here’s to hoping we’re able to do so again!

Re: The EU still wants to scan your private messages and photos

#162

Post by pessimizer »

moffkalast wrote: post #140
afh1 wrote: post #126

Where are all those "as an EU citizen" commenters? You are but a subject of an ultra-national government whose sole objective is ever increased control over your life and euros.

As an EU citizen I have to remind you that as a (most likely) US citizen, you've had the Patiot act sanction the NSA to have free reign for this sort of thing for the past 25 years. We've shot it down before, and we'll shoot it down again, regardless of how relentless Palantir lobbying gets.

> you've had the Patiot act sanction the NSA to have free reign for this sort of thing for the past 25 years.

This is not true. No part of the Patriot Act required all people all private messages and photos to be scanned or have a backdoor to encryption. You're saying this to minimize what's about to happen to Europe, which is not helpful. The NSA made deals with private companies to tap lines, and used its influence and US intelligence's secret ownership of a Swiss encryption company to encourage us to use broken algorithms.

> We've shot it down before, and we'll shoot it down again, regardless of how relentless Palantir lobbying gets.

I wish you luck. But there's nothing keeping the EU from doing, and having always done, what the NSA has also done. What you're trying to stop is the requirement to serve your communications to your rulers on a silver platter.

Re: The EU still wants to scan your private messages and photos

#163

Post by localuser13 »

thewebguyd wrote: post #115
layer8 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This exists in a number of EU member states: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secrecy_of_correspondence

The problem is, in all of those member states, they all have carve outs for "national security." Germany, for exmaple, has secrecy of correspondence that extends to electronic communications, but allows for "restrictions to protect the free democratic basic order" and outlines when intelligence services can bypass the right to privacy. Italy, France, and Polan also have similar carve outs. Having it as a right isn't…

>National security and "public safety" carve outs need to be eliminated. So long as those exist, we have no right to privacy.

This is overly absolutist, or maybe idealistic view. National security and public safety IS more important than individual right to privacy. As an extreme example, if your friend was dying, you had a password to my email, and you knew that you can use information in my inbox to save that person i really hope you would do it.

In general I think that police with a court order should be able to invade someone's privacy (with judge discretion). I mean they can already kick down someone's doors and detain them for several days - checking email doesn't sound too bad compared to it, does it? I think they should also be legally obliged to inform that person in let's say 6 months that they did it.

The problem is that modern world is drastically different than the old world when you needed to physically hunt down letters. Now you can mass scan everyone's emails, siphon terabytes of personal data that stasi could only dream of, and invigilate everyone. This is something that is worth fighting against.

Re: The EU still wants to scan your private messages and photos

#164

Post by hagbard_c »

layer8 wrote: post #107
hagbard_c wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If my experience is anything to go by the answer is 'yes': https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47412060 > The clearest example of lobbying (chat control) has repeatedly been struck down. They can try as often as they want and they only have to win once. We - as in those who don't want this Orwellian monster to be written into law - have to win all the time. That comment was quickly voted down. It is unclear whether…

One reason to downvote it is because laws having some stability is generally a good thing. It also doesn’t prevent laws being passed that strengthen the right to privacy. The argument is a too simplistic criticism of the legislative process. And it’s independent from criticizing the actual laws that are attempted to be passed. It applies equally to desirable and undesirable laws.

In that case the down-voters could have replied with something like that instead of knee-jerk-pressing that down-vote arrow in an attempt to get rid of a dissenting opinion. I would have responded by pointing out that the repeated attempts at pushing through laws which are clearly unwanted by the voting public has no stabilising effect and only undermines the trust in the legislative process. That my argument of 'they can try as often as they wish because they only have to win once while we have to win every time' is not simplistic but realistic.

I would be interested to hear your reasoning behind that statement by the way, in what way is it 'simplistic'? Why should it be acceptable for politicos to keep on attempting to push through unwanted laws while it is clearly not allowed for e.g. commercial entities to keep on pestering you with unwanted offers? Here's the very same EU on the subject [1]:

Persistent unwanted offers

Under EU law, companies may not make persistent and unwanted offers to you by telephone, fax, e mail or any other media suitable for distance selling.

I propose a similar law for politicos:

Persistent unwanted law proposals

Under EU law, politicians may not make persistent attempts to push through law proposals which have been voted down several times before.

The law text needs to make clear that it is not allowed to keep on trying to push through essentially identical law proposals which have been voted down by $X sessions of the EU parliament. After having been voted down $X times there is a mandatory moratorium of $Y years before a similar law can be brought up to the vote again.

[1] https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/unfair-treat...

Re: The EU still wants to scan your private messages and photos

#165

Post by [deleted] »

latexr wrote: post #161
afh1 wrote: post #126

Where are all those "as an EU citizen" commenters? You are but a subject of an ultra-national government whose sole objective is ever increased control over your life and euros.

As a EU citizen, it pisses me off that the US is (with others outside the EU) trying this hard to lobby to undermine our democracy and freedom of speech. https://digitalcourage.social/@echo_pbreyer/1162053712243153... And I’d still take this clusterfuck over the alternative current state of the US. At least this situation we can (and have been) striking down, despite all the naysayers on HN. Here’s to hoping we’re ab…

[deleted]

Re: The EU still wants to scan your private messages and photos

#167

Post by kelnos »

layer8 wrote: post #118
thewebguyd wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is, in all of those member states, they all have carve outs for "national security." Germany, for exmaple, has secrecy of correspondence that extends to electronic communications, but allows for "restrictions to protect the free democratic basic order" and outlines when intelligence services can bypass the right to privacy. Italy, France, and Polan also have similar carve outs. Having it as a right isn't…

Rights are never absolute, they always have to be weighed against each other. The weighing can and should be debated, and needs strong protections when put into practice, but demanding an absolute is not reasonable.

Then they're not "rights". They're just things that you get if and when the government feels like it.

Re: The EU still wants to scan your private messages and photos

#168

Post by vrganj »

sgt wrote: post #79
iso1631 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are two elements to the EU The Council, which is headed by the government of each member state in equal measure - similar to the Senate in the US And Parliament, which are directly elected by the people, with each member state having representitives in proportion to their population, so Germany has far more than Ireland. This is similar to Congress. Now this site says Germany supports it, but then says that MEP…

Is that fair? Ireland should surely have a say the same way Germany does in parliament too, if it's affecting Ireland just as much. If one considers countries as units.

That's the whole idea, the parliament doesn't.

The Council is the representation of the countries. The Parliament of the people.

Re: The EU still wants to scan your private messages and photos

#169

Post by u8080 »

askonomm wrote: post #153
foweltschmerz wrote: post #39

This is the same EU that blocks and hinders innovation in the name of privacy?

You are aware that EU is not a single country, right? I know American education is third-world levels these days, so unfortunately I have to ask this.

4 Member States Opposing

23 Member States Supporting

0 Member States Undecided

Re: The EU still wants to scan your private messages and photos

#170

Post by [deleted] »

svachalek wrote: post #148
troad wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the reasons international human rights law is so worthless in actual practice, is that half of it is framed like this. "Everyone has the right to X, except as duly restricted by law." Cool, so that's not a right at all then. Ditto the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, with its 'notwithstanding' clause. (Though they're presently litigating over that, so we'll see what happens!) Any constitution or human…

Every contract I have to agree to these days has a "valid until unilaterally invalidated" clause. It feels like we're all just going through the motions.

[deleted]
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