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TSMC says employees tried to steal trade secrets on iPhone 18 chip process

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Re: TSMC says employees tried to steal trade secrets on iPhone 18 chip process

#161

Gee, I wonder which nation-state actor was orchestrating this...

I always wondered - why people use a nation-state notion? Why not just a state or a country? USA is not a nation-state, or UK, or India, or Russia, etc. Does your question imply that none of these countries are capable of orchestrating this and only nation-states can do it?

New Jersey is a state. I do not think that they have the wherewithal to attempt such. Scotland is a country, but I don't think their occupiers would allow them to try. Granted, it is an awkward term, and I too wish there was a better one.

>Does your question imply that none of these countries are capable of orchestrating this and only nation-states can do it?

It's not clear to me that Russia can summon the ambition. But point conceded.

Re: TSMC says employees tried to steal trade secrets on iPhone 18 chip process

#162
post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, because if you tolerate that you disincentivize actually developing the IP in question in favour of stealing everyone else's, which leads to nothing being developed.

is it impossible for society to advance without IP laws? is capitalism a requirement for advancement?

No. Of course not. This is just something IP holders say because they profit.

Re: TSMC says employees tried to steal trade secrets on iPhone 18 chip process

#163
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just knowing how the thing is built doesn't seem to be enough. Comac still sources its jet engines from Pratt and Whitney for instance, despite many years of trying no local manufacturer has been able to build them to the same spec.

The product I oversee at my job is something that can only be built by people who are intimately aware of the process and have a strong understanding of the underlying engineering. We could hand the full project file to a competitor and they almost certainly would not be able to build functional units. The failure points are fractal, so you need a strong intuition about what part you are installing, what qualities an…

This is a bigger issue than most people appreciate, and a huge problem for the USA.

There is a specialised trade known as tool and die maker, or just die maker (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tool_and_die_maker) that is fundamental to a country’s ability to create industrial capacity. So far, no automation tool has been able to replace their expertise.

Without die makers, you can’t build tools that make things, you can’t build factories, and mass production in general is dependent on their skillset.

Right now, the USA only has 50k die makers, and the average age of a die maker, including apprentices, is 54. The average age of a master die maker is 73, and the average age of a journeyman is 62. A master die maker can teach about 5 apprentices to the journey man level in a work environment, after 2+ years of basic engineering school, in about 5-7 years. A journeyman may generally considered a master after 10-20 years of experience, depending on the nature of their experience.

We don’t have enough die makers to rebuild the industrial capacity of the USA, and we can’t teach the amount we need in less than 5-7decades without some kind of major change in the process of doing so. And since more than half of the master die makers are months from retirement or death, we are in an extremely precarious position as a viable industrial power.

This is why it is extremely difficult to build anything physical in the USA using only USA sourced parts and materials. It’s almost impossible to even get a decent variety of screws and fasteners made here in the USA, and we can’t easy build the machines to make screws because of the critical shortage of master die makers.

If we are to maintain the ability to build and maintain our machines, weapons, and critical infrastructure without being completely dependent on imported tools, supplies, and knowledge, we will have to reinvent the industrial process using automation or something similar to compensate for our foolish exportation and devaluation of strategic skills and capabilities.

Re: TSMC says employees tried to steal trade secrets on iPhone 18 chip process

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Naively, I was assuming TSMC would still operate like TSMC, not the Taliban, and that they'd focus on doing their work, not religious performance, but I guess anything is possible! Suggesting TSMC start operating like the Taliban to protect their trade secrets seems like an obviously bad idea, though. But we don't live in a vacuum, so I guess it's all just opinion pieces.

Please don’t be facetious

Okay, substitute Taliban for the Church of Scientology or the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

It's a marginally less absurd proposal.

My point stands.

Proposing extreme religious nepotism as a good counter-measure to deal with espionage 1) would be minimally effective (see the IDF infiltrating Hamas and Iran regularly), and 2) is ridiculous.

Re: TSMC says employees tried to steal trade secrets on iPhone 18 chip process

#165
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's always worth remembering there's exactly one reason Excel is abused -- IT isn't giving "non-developers" access to tools they need to automate their work.

while I don't doubt that such situations also exist, that wasn't the reason for any of the many "Excel abusers" I've encountered in different positions. Quite to the contrary, these people all had access to the appropriate tools, but their whole thinking was totally formatted and fixated on Excel as their go-to tool for everything: be it things better done with a database, a word processor, a diagramming program, a l…

In hotel industry they need to calculate and set a price for each room/night. Typically that's done by solving convex optimization (e.g. simplex method) and using "shadow values" from it as the price per room.

Lo and behold, not every math package provides "shadow values". So you either buy a specialized math tool, or... use Excel, that has it built-in.

Re: TSMC says employees tried to steal trade secrets on iPhone 18 chip process

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No recipe accounts for ambient temperature/humidity, very few for altitude differences, etc. etc. It still takes knowledgable tweaks to get just right.

Such recipe could exist.

They exist in the industry, where a small variation of one parameter could affect tons of products. Same for individual restaurants, cooks know how to set up their equipment. For amateur cooks at home it does not matter. They do not need that level of consistency, and it would get quite expensive.

Re: TSMC says employees tried to steal trade secrets on iPhone 18 chip process

#167
post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If only my dad had an emerald mine then I'd be the billionaire rocket scientist CEO

https://www.snopes.com/news/2022/11/17/elon-musk-emerald-min... TLDR: It's nonsense.

Funny how many words it takes to say Elon’s dad in fact own a stake in an emerald mine, invest in Elon’s business, and give Elon an incredibly privileged upbringing.

Re: TSMC says employees tried to steal trade secrets on iPhone 18 chip process

#168
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The product I oversee at my job is something that can only be built by people who are intimately aware of the process and have a strong understanding of the underlying engineering. We could hand the full project file to a competitor and they almost certainly would not be able to build functional units. The failure points are fractal, so you need a strong intuition about what part you are installing, what qualities an…

This is a bigger issue than most people appreciate, and a huge problem for the USA. There is a specialised trade known as tool and die maker, or just die maker ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tool_and_die_maker ) that is fundamental to a country’s ability to create industrial capacity. So far, no automation tool has been able to replace their expertise. Without die makers, you can’t build tools that make things, yo…

If the average age is 73 that's the issue right there. People are refusing to retire at 62 and make room for juniors. Then when they finally do retire (73 average seems like "dies in office" levels) there are 2 decades of missing juniors who haven't been trained in the pipeline.

This is the shortcoming with most technical fields. No one is incentivized to see the big picture of the training pipeline that exists well outside the scope of their own company. No one likes juniors but that is their future.

Re: TSMC says employees tried to steal trade secrets on iPhone 18 chip process

#169

How big are all of the design files for a modern chip? 10MB? 100gig? Billions of transistors, but surely a lot of compressible redundancy. Not that I think you can just plug in a thumb drive and download as you please, but just a sense of scale on how much data describes the design.

> Not that I think you can just plug in a thumb drive and download as you please Why not? It's just data, and a thumb drive stores data. As long as it fits.

TSMC practices compartmentalization. The entire recipe is never stored in one place.

Re: TSMC says employees tried to steal trade secrets on iPhone 18 chip process

#170
post #168
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a bigger issue than most people appreciate, and a huge problem for the USA. There is a specialised trade known as tool and die maker, or just die maker ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tool_and_die_maker ) that is fundamental to a country’s ability to create industrial capacity. So far, no automation tool has been able to replace their expertise. Without die makers, you can’t build tools that make things, yo…

If the average age is 73 that's the issue right there. People are refusing to retire at 62 and make room for juniors. Then when they finally do retire (73 average seems like "dies in office" levels) there are 2 decades of missing juniors who haven't been trained in the pipeline. This is the shortcoming with most technical fields. No one is incentivized to see the big picture of the training pipeline that exists well…

The actual killer is the pay and working conditions, and the problem is fairly intractable.

If you are smart enough to be a good tool maker, you are likely smart enough to be a good 6-figure keyboard-all-day worker. Losing a finger (or three) and breathing VOCs all day for half the pay is not very enticing.

These industries aren't glamourous for investors either. The business proposition sucks, the cost and liabilities are intense, and the margins would need to be negative to be truly competitive.

And worse than anything, the stuff that comes from China is not only 1/10th the cost, it's also now better quality.

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