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A pretty visualisation of the European power grid (2022)

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Re: A pretty visualisation of the European power grid (2022)

#161

Post by walski »

rjmunro wrote: post #141

It's a nice UI, and there is interesting data in there, but I think it is just an static estimate of averages, rather than something linked to actual live data like http://gridwatch.co.uk/ or https://gridwatch.templar.co.uk/france/ It's not super clear. It says it's using 2 hour slots, but there's no clock saying when it was last updated or anything.

Form their website:

> The math behind it is real, and it uses the same calculations that real grid operators use to keep the lights on. However, the amount of power that each power plant actually produces depends on the price they offer. This price varies wildly from hour to hour, and neither the price nor the power amount is publicly available.

> Instead, pypsa-eur makes assumptions on prices for solar, wind, coal, nuclear, etc. based on historical averages, and then runs an optimisation algorithm to cover all consumption for the least cost of production.

Re: A pretty visualisation of the European power grid (2022)

#162

Post by realusername »

masklinn wrote: post #50
anton96 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no clew how come the difference on what's usually said on this forum and the situation in Europe.My only understanding is that the US as whole is more sunny that gives a better ratio solar panel and produced electricity. Maybe also it's a provider thing ? From country to country, you can always have things that seem randomly more expensive. Germany is more renewable but more expensive than France, is it becaus…

> Germany is more renewable but more expensive than France No, germany is more renewable but it's also more coal, any time there's no wind the coal plants start up. And they burn lignite (because that's what in germany e.g. that's what the Baggers strip mine). As a consequence, Germany's electricity emissions are absolute garbage: https://app.electricitymaps.com/zone/DE/12mo It's not as bad as Poland which basically…

And the reality is even worse than that because France has 40% electricity heating whereas it's only 5% in Germany.

Re: A pretty visualisation of the European power grid (2022)

#163

Post by thrance »

Propelloni wrote: post #151
thrance wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strategically speaking, Europe lacks the natural resources to build renewable, wind turbines and solar panels have to be imported, most of them from Asia. Nuclear is still a bit cheaper per Watt and less carbon intensive, as it involves less infrastructure, logistics and batteries overall. It's also somewhat more reliable, as it doesn't depend on sun or wind (the former of which France often lacks). Also, I am hopefu…

> Nuclear is still a bit cheaper per Watt LCOE [1] of nuclear power in Europe and the USA is roughly thrice that of solar or wind [2]. In China it is about even. If you do not trust the Deutsche Bank report, the World Nuclear Association comes to roughly the same conclusion but assumes a lower discount, thus making nuclear power more attractive. [3] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levelized_cost_of_electricity [2]…

In France, the most recent report [1] by the Cour des comptes, our official accounting organ, still gives nuclear power as slightly cheaper than solar and wind.

I trust your data, but the situation here is different, most reactors are already built, and "only" need maintenance and fuel replacement.

I still stand by what I said in my previous comment about emissions per watts, etc.

[1] https://www.ccomptes.fr/sites/default/files/2021-12/20211213...

Re: A pretty visualisation of the European power grid (2022)

#164

Post by Symbiote »

masklinn wrote: post #83
qayxc wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Compare to the PAST, not the present! As you can see, the trend is downwards and steadily at that: https://www.destatis.de/EN/Themes/Economic-Sectors-Enterpris... Rome wasn't built in a day and I find it hilarious to advocate for nuclear power instead, if the average construction time (not even taking into account the prior mountain of bureaucracy) is over a decade. Not a single nuclear power plant built in past 15 y…

> As you can see, the trend is downwards and steadily at that Lignite numbers: 2019: 114TWh, 18.7% 2020: 92TWh, 16% 2021: 110TWh, 18.8% 2022: 116TWh, 20% 2023: 88TWh, 17% I've seen steadier terminal alcoholics.

I think this graph from Wikipedia is better, as it goes back to 1990 [1].

Renewables have increased significantly, but much of that is displacing nuclear power. The remainder, plus a small increase in natural gas, his displaced hard coal and a small amount of lignite. Presumably hard coal is more expensive.

The overall trend is coal is reducing, but it's a poor show compared to Great Britain [2].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_sector_in_Germany#...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_in_Great_Britain#/...

Re: A pretty visualisation of the European power grid (2022)

#165

Post by [deleted] »

skagenpilot wrote: post #7

When looking at France, at a zoom level where one can see the whole country, all the green dots are located next to nuclear power plants. It's a good reminder that the french grid is mostly powered by nuclear. It'd be nice to see the same map over summer to see if the different electric mix then gives birth to a different map.

[deleted]

Re: A pretty visualisation of the European power grid (2022)

#166

Post by gmueckl »

globular-toast wrote: post #116
RandomThoughts3 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s fairly disingenuous to mix both actually when they don’t mingle. Especially when you consider that both heating and transportation are going in the direction of using more electricity which is actually favorable to the French choice.

Energy is energy. Why make a special category for heating and transport?

It's because the energy sources, technical implementation and uses are so vastly different between the power grid, heating and transportation.

Re: A pretty visualisation of the European power grid (2022)

#167

Post by masklinn »

Symbiote wrote: post #164
masklinn wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As you can see, the trend is downwards and steadily at that Lignite numbers: 2019: 114TWh, 18.7% 2020: 92TWh, 16% 2021: 110TWh, 18.8% 2022: 116TWh, 20% 2023: 88TWh, 17% I've seen steadier terminal alcoholics.

I think this graph from Wikipedia is better, as it goes back to 1990 [1]. Renewables have increased significantly, but much of that is displacing nuclear power. The remainder, plus a small increase in natural gas, his displaced hard coal and a small amount of lignite. Presumably hard coal is more expensive. The overall trend is coal is reducing, but it's a poor show compared to Great Britain [2]. [1] https://en.wikip…

> Presumably hard coal is more expensive.

Yeah, Germany did have hard coal mines but they closed a few years back as they've gotten too deep and difficult to access to be economically viable (and it was subsidised until 2018), so Germany imports hard coal. Meanwhile germany is either #1 or #2 lignite producer.

Re: A pretty visualisation of the European power grid (2022)

#168

Post by marcosdumay »

ziotom78 wrote: post #158
dasKrokodil wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's see... nuclear power is super expensive, relies on finite uranium resources and there is no safe solution to store the waste. Do we really want to rely on this?

“Super expensive” for who builds them, or "super expensive" for the end user paying their electricity bill? Also, there are safe solutions to store nuclear waste. They are not 1.0e31% secure, but many other kinds of power plants carry significant risks [1] [2] [3] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vajont_Dam [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farmington_Mine_disaster [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Connecticut_…

It's either expensive to the person paying the bill or to the person paying tax to subsidize it.

That's what "super expensive" means.

And yeah, most of it comes from the cost of building them. But they are barely competitive with solar + batteries if you count only the costs of operating them.

Re: A pretty visualisation of the European power grid (2022)

#170

Post by therealdrag0 »

himinlomax wrote: post #121
barbazoo wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure if that still holds true nowadays with renewable energy and storage having got cheaper and cheaper.

You'd need to be able to store WEEKS of electricity to make wind+solar work. Currently, battery grid-scale storage stores seconds. You'd need an increase of several orders of magnitude for this to work. Even if manufacturing costs were magically 0, the amount of lithium, copper and other materials required would be unsustainable. It's not going to happen.

Do you have any source elaborating on that?
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