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The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

smithsonianmag.com

161–170 of 220 posts

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You steal a mummy from egipt, take it to london, put it in a museum. Who has more claim on the item... someone who stole it and kept it for 100, 150, 200 years? Or people of egypt represented by their government,living in an area where the mummy was stolen from?

What do you mean “stole”? From whom? They were literally abandoned.

>They were literally abandoned.

Interesting take. If they were abandoned then I dont see how anyone could claim ownership of it.

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#162
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You steal a mummy from egipt, take it to london, put it in a museum. Who has more claim on the item... someone who stole it and kept it for 100, 150, 200 years? Or people of egypt represented by their government,living in an area where the mummy was stolen from?

Depending on the time period, anyone between the Egyptians, Hyksos, Nubians, Libyans, Persians, Assyrians and the Romans, and indeed the British, since they all at one point were the official rulers of Egypt. I have no idea why citizens of modern Egypt, which didn’t get formed until 1953, would be more entitled to up to 3500 year old artifacts more than the then actual owners (agree with the means or not)

And in fact modern Egyptians are more Arabs — the Copts are closer to, but still very far from, the ancient Egyptians.

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#163
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is spot on. Why should a “mosern country” be the owner of an artifact? I wonder honestly, I am not just whining.

Because they are more secure there. These are irreplaceable items. Pick your favorite cultural artifact, would you help move it to a more secure location if there was a lot of instability that could lead to it being destroyed? Even if that more secure location was a different country? I personally would.

I would recommend reading "Africa is Not a Country" that delves into this exact question. It is the pinnacle of self-serving arguments for European countries to first spend centuries colonising Africa, stolen its wealth and cultural artifacts, enriching themselves in the bargain, and dividing the continent in a way that would guarantee political instability, to then use that same instability as an excuse for not returning those cultural artifacts.

Of course this article is about Indonesia - that's not a country that screams instability in any case

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#164

> While some critics of repatriation have raised concerns over how poorer countries will care for their returned artifacts, Marieke van Bommel, director general of the National Museum of World Cultures, tells the New York Times’ Lynsey Chutel that “the thief cannot tell the rightful owners what to do with their property.” But the government of the country the artifacts are being returned into isn’t the rightful owner…

Many artifacts were stolen from legitimate kingdoms / village councils / etc that no longer exist, so for these artifacts returning it to the corresponding modern government is fairly appropriate. Otherwise, unless there is a clear claim of individual/familial ownership vis descendancy, then returning artifacts to a legal national government is still a least bad option. In this case the artifact belongs to the people…

> Otherwise, unless there is a clear claim of individual/familial ownership vis descendancy, then returning artifacts to a legal national government is still a least bad option.

How do you expect such a clean and clear historic record considering these artifacts were taken from places subjected to deep exploitation by the same countries that today possess the artifacts? Surely keeping records of historical artifacts for use centuries later, would have been a lower priority for the local population than survival.

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#165
post #41

While these discussions are always loaded with sentimental intepretation, and complex questions of what "rightful owner" after hundreds or thousands of years even means, I think more of an emphasis should be put on impact for the population. After all, the British Museum, the main example for restitutions, is located in a global city, given completely free access to its huge collection on display and pays for preserv…

> After all, the British Museum, the main example for restitutions, is located in a global city, given completely free access to its huge collection on display and pays for preservation. The global cultural value it adds is much larger than individual museums all over the would could provide.

Firstly, as others have pointed out, the British Museum is not freely accessible to the vast majority of the world population. The world is larger than WEIRD countries and the richer sections of formerly colonised countries countries

Secondly, it is not the British Museum's decision to make about whether the cultural artifacts of other people is more valuable to "global culture" than it is to the culture it originated from. Let's take an example: India and China both have a population more than double that of the EU. Which means a museum located in either country provides visa-free access to billions of people with relatively cheap travel.

Would that be an argument to move the Girl With the Pearl Earring from The Hague's Mauritshuis to New Delhi or Beijing? Would it be an argument to move the painting to the British Museum? Indeed why not move the entire Mauritshuis to the British Museum? After all London receives far more visitors than The Hague does. Surely the global cultural value of those artifacts is greater than the value that the Dutch place on it.

Consider that you apply this logic to extract all Dutch artwork from that country and place it in a second country. Consider that the second country was largely responsible for such extraction, which included not only cultural artifacts but also wealth. Consider that the second country now places visa restrictions that make it harder for Dutch people to visit the country and even if they did, the cost of actually doing so would largely exclude most Dutch people. What effect would this extraction of cultural heritage have on the Dutch?

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#166
post #80
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looting and pillaging is fine, as long as you build an entire economic / social system around it? Because that is the only semblance of logic I can take away from your statements. These museums didn't just pop into place for the artifacts to reside in; they were built to show off their spoils.

Take the Taliban example of destroying Buddhist culture in the 90s. They are/were the current people in power would you suggest returning items to be destroyed or carefully preserving them for future. Would you return items to a place incapable of taking care of them?

I love how an extreme example of one country doing this to their historical artifacts, is used to deny entire swathes of billions of people access to their artifacts. So all colonized countries must be damned by the record of Afghanistan (which itself owes a lot of its instability to meddling by colonial powers), while the British Museum must NOT be damned by it's own record of having hundreds of artifacts defaced and parts sold for scrap: https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/13/style/artefacts-british-m...

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#167
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> After all, the British Museum, the main example for restitutions, is located in a global city, given completely free access to its huge collection on display and pays for preservation. The global cultural value it adds is much larger than individual museums all over the would could provide. Most of the collection of the British Museum is not on display at any given moment (if ever). They could lose 90% of their inv…

Most of these third world countries also have some artefacts on their soil as well. Do they need literally all of them, and you'd have to visit the globe to see international artefacts? The most famous ones, like the Rosetta Stone, only became famous from their usage by Western archeologists. As for London being expensive, well visiting any foreign country is expensive by non-natives. At least in London you can get a…

> At least in London you can get a large set of cultural exposure in a single visit.

So why not use this logic to extract all of The Hague's Mauritshuis (including The Girl With The Pearl Earring) to London? Let's include the most prized artifacts of other European countries too in this "large set of cultural exposure".

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#168
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean “stole”? From whom? They were literally abandoned.

>They were literally abandoned. Interesting take. If they were abandoned then I dont see how anyone could claim ownership of it.

Abandoned property generally belongs to whoever finds it and claims it.

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#169
post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's Complicated(tm) - Scotland and England are, currently , both part of Britain. Historically, not so much. And they were often far-from-friendly, with wars fought and everything. In a referendum 10 years ago, ~45% of Scottish voters wanted to separate again.

They are both part of the United Kingdom (which is the union of the kingdoms of England and Scotland). Great Britain the name of the island both are located upon. England and Scotland will always be a part of Britain, because that's a geographical area, not a political one.

>England and Scotland will always be a part of Britain

Not necessarily: they could dig a big canal across the island along the border.

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

thanks for the link but still lost.

It looks incredibly simple and clear to me, so I'm pretty curious about what is getting you lost, if you'd be inclined to expand.

What makes the UK a unique place with regard to slavery, as your original post implies?
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