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How Rent Control Drives Out Affordable Housing

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Re: How Rent Control Drives Out Affordable Housing

#161
post #125
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Profit is the world's way of signaling that you are doing something in an efficient, effective, and long-term sustainable way. So, given that health care is one of the most fundamental individual needs, profit most definitely should be the goal. But health care is not the most fundamental need -- that would be food. I find it puzzling that people don't apply the same arguement to this need. Why not say that profit sh…

I wish I could upvote this comment more than once -- I think it is dead on. Profit is the creation of value. If there's no profit, then there's no value added. Profit works great for food, shelter, clothes, heat, and most every basic human need. I think what really messes up the healthcare market is that the more that technology progresses, the more sophisticated and expensive treatments we discover. The cost and eff…

> Profit is the creation of value. If there's no profit, then there's no value added.

I hope you mean profit in the non monetary sense then. ie profit meaning to increase someones standard of living?

Charitable workers don't make any money and I'd say they add alot of value to other peoples lives.

Re: How Rent Control Drives Out Affordable Housing

#162
post #103
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True. I don't think anyone would object to helping the 1% of people who are actually in that category. The problem is that interest groups hijack the programs in order to win handouts for those who don't really need the programs.

Where does this 1% come from? As a back of the envelope calculation, I would guess that almost all senior citizens are unprofitable to insure -- that's way more than 1%. Even if I'm off by a lot, it's still way more than 1% -- and I haven't addressed the rest of the population.

unprofitable to insure

It is not possible for someone to be unprofitable to insure. Why do you think it could be?

If you are finding your bets unprofitable, try changing the amounts that you are betting.

Re: How Rent Control Drives Out Affordable Housing

#163
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The market optimizes everything for the better if it is allowed. Baloney. This is a belief, not a fact.

It is a fact that any transaction between two people that is not distorted in any way by outside parties will leave both parties better off.

No, it isn't. You're making the huge assumption that both parties are equal in the exchange and one party isn't using force on the other. Again, typical libertarian fantasy assumes everyone is nice, wake up, they aren't.

Re: How Rent Control Drives Out Affordable Housing

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Clearly living in a deteroriating building is better than being evicted. However, eviction is not the alternative to rent control. Being evicted is different from having your rent raised to market rates, and is different from having your lease not renewed. It may be a legal consequence of tenants deciding not to leave and/or not to pay a higher rent, but it's not like the choice we're debating is eviction vs rent con…

I intended 'prevent' to mean, you know, prevent, which is pure bullshit, given that all rent control laws explicitly allow maintenance increases. I'm obviously aware that it still creates the disincentive, seeing as how I pointed it out the very next sentence. Eviction is the alternative to rent control in the cases where rent control matters - if the tenant can't afford market rates, then they get evicted.

Eviction is the alternative to rent control in the cases where rent control matters - if the tenant can't afford market rates, then they get evicted.

If you "can't afford" a $1,000 computer, do you go without a computer?

Re: How Rent Control Drives Out Affordable Housing

#165
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The world isn't that simple and by the way, monopoly is a natural outcome in a free market system exactly because it doesn't always work. It breaks down, that's why we regulate it. The only place the free market actually works is in libertarians imaginations because they think Atlas Shrugged somehow reflects reality.

You do live in a strange world very distant from the one that most of us readers of Hacker News lives in. Name me one real monopoly that isn't enforced through "social engineering". A free market may have ocasional dominant market leaders like IBM and MS in their time and Google today. None of them are or were monopolies as better technologies and startups will always (lets repeat that word ALWAYS) come around as lon…

No, I live in the real world where unrestrained free trade is bad because people seeking profit are not inherently good when they acquire too much power. See Standard Oil, John D. Rockefeller and some history about why we started trust busting in the first place.

Your view that the free market works wonderfully if left alone is simply naive. The real world is simply more complex than that.

In fact, your belief that there even is such a thing as a free market is naive and ignores the very real fact that corruption is inevitable and businesses seek out regulation to protect themselves from competitors destroying the very free market they so claim to love. Any truly free market is simply a temporary state of existence destined to die as soon as corruption takes hold, which it always does.

Re: How Rent Control Drives Out Affordable Housing

#166
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My grandparents lived in rent controlled apartments in NYC that they could not have afforded to stay in [...] This is how rent-control can create shortages. Under rent-control, older people who would otherwise downsize have no incentive to do so. Younger people who might still be able to live with their parents instead rent separate apartments. The fundamental problem is there's not enough housing for everyone to g…

The point of the anecdote was to show how anecdotes aren't a good way to argue. The anecdote doesn't show anything -- not my point, and not yours either. Their specific story is not the point -- my point was that if you want to cherry-pick anecdotes of a program not working, one can always counter-argue with other anecdotes. Either you believe that it is in the public interest to have some availability of low-income…

> Is rent-control the best way to achieve that goal -- I don't know -- [...] -- I haven't heard anyone propose something better -- just complain about it based on hearsay.

What if rent control is actually causing shortages were there's no physical scarcity? We can mostly agree on intent, but sometimes, collectively, we enact plans that cause the opposite of what we want.

It happens that I'm just reading Thomas Sowell's Basic Economics. In the chapter on price controls, he argues that rent control (and price controls, in general) cause shortages where there is no scarcity of the underlying commodity.

As you point out, I'm not an expert, and FWIW I haven't read the original sources. I have some problems with his analysis of medical care price controls, but I'll get to that later.

Here are some quotes and his cites...

All the quotes are from:

Sowell, T. (2007). Basic Economics. A Common Sense Guide to the Economy. 3rd ed. New York: Basic Books.

"Before rent control was imposed in Sweden, less than one-fourth of all unmarried adults there lived in their own separate housing units in 1940, but that proportion rose over the years until just over half did by 1975." (p.41)

... from the article, "The Rise, Fall and Revival of Swedish Rent Control", in the book Roofs or Ceilings? by Milton Friedman and George Stigler.

"In San Francisco, a study in 2001 showed that 49 percent of that city's rent-controlled apartments had only a single occupant, while a severe housing shortage in the city had thousands of people living considerable distances away and making long commutes to their jobs in San Francisco." (p.41)

... from p.21 of San Francisco Housing DataBook, commissioned by the city, and produced by consultants Bay Area Economics, in 2001.

"Meanwhile, a Census report showed likewise that 48 percent of all households in Manhattan, where most apartments are under some form of rent control, are occupied by only one person." (p.41)

... from page A2 of the September 3, 2005 issue of the San Francisco Chronicle, title: "Census: More Americans Living Alone."

"A study published in 2001 showed that more than one-fourth of the occupants of rent-controlled apartments in San Francisco had household incomes of more than $100,000 a year." (p.48)

... not sure where he got this -- I need to get back to coding -- if you care, check out his Sources chapter.

Without looking further into the issue, I'm reasonably convinced that rent control drives up rental prices, and creates housing shortages (at the artificially low price levels).

BUT ...

What this doesn't consider is that my home is not a fungible or liquid asset for most people. You may be able to change residences easily, but it will take time for your new residence to become your home.

It's a lot easier to consume a bit less power, produce a bit less garbage, or spend a little less money in response to changing market conditions.

Because of this, people feel very strongly about holding on to their homes, even if by this hoarding, they're harming others.

Re: How Rent Control Drives Out Affordable Housing

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I intended 'prevent' to mean, you know, prevent, which is pure bullshit, given that all rent control laws explicitly allow maintenance increases. I'm obviously aware that it still creates the disincentive, seeing as how I pointed it out the very next sentence. Eviction is the alternative to rent control in the cases where rent control matters - if the tenant can't afford market rates, then they get evicted.

Or, in hopefully more common cases, they do the responsible thing and move out themselves at the end of the lease term, without going through the legal process of eviction.

Okay, fine. They still get displaced.

Re: How Rent Control Drives Out Affordable Housing

#168
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point of the anecdote was to show how anecdotes aren't a good way to argue. The anecdote doesn't show anything -- not my point, and not yours either. Their specific story is not the point -- my point was that if you want to cherry-pick anecdotes of a program not working, one can always counter-argue with other anecdotes. Either you believe that it is in the public interest to have some availability of low-income…

> Is rent-control the best way to achieve that goal -- I don't know -- [...] -- I haven't heard anyone propose something better -- just complain about it based on hearsay. What if rent control is actually causing shortages were there's no physical scarcity? We can mostly agree on intent, but sometimes, collectively, we enact plans that cause the opposite of what we want. It happens that I'm just reading Thomas Sowell…

Thomas Sowell's Basic Economics. In the chapter on price controls, he argues that rent control (and price controls, in general) cause shortages where there is no scarcity of the underlying commodity.

Price controls also prevent productive individuals from accessing the resources that they otherwise use to produce surplus resources -- thus making everyone poorer.

Re: How Rent Control Drives Out Affordable Housing

#169
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wild fluctuations != rising prices.

Rising prices are a subset of wild fluctuations. The other part is falling prices. Rent control isn't really necessary for the latter, is it now?

No, wild fluctuations are wild -- your adjective -- continual change up and down. May I suggest a dictionary?

fluc⋅tu⋅a⋅tion   [fluhk-choo-ey-shuhn] Show IPA Pronunciation –noun 1. continual change from one point or condition to another. 2. wavelike motion; undulation.

This does not subsume longer-term trends.

EDIT: I want to know if your issue is simply with rising prices. If it is -- and it seems pretty clear that it is -- don't use misleading/distracting/inaccurate verbiage like "wild fluctuations".

Re: How Rent Control Drives Out Affordable Housing

#170
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a fact that any transaction between two people that is not distorted in any way by outside parties will leave both parties better off.

No, it isn't. You're making the huge assumption that both parties are equal in the exchange and one party isn't using force on the other. Again, typical libertarian fantasy assumes everyone is nice, wake up, they aren't.

It doesn't require anything you name here except the absence of force. No libertarian thinks or assumes everyone must be nice and no libertarian thinker has ever predicated his argument on such.

You know, there actually have been some highly intelligent and thoughtful libertarian thinkers, far from whatever fantasy you may have.

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