How Rent Control Drives Out Affordable Housing • Hacker News Board

Re: How Rent Control Drives Out Affordable Housing

#81

Post by gnaritas » Wed, Dec 31, 2008, 2:08 AM UTC

benl wrote: post #67

gnaritas wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Health is very different from other services, profit should not be the goal. Business does not attempt to help people, but to maximize profit, which does not necessarily mean increasing availability or lowering prices at all. It might be more profitable to dump the lower income people and jack up the prices on those who can afford it. Unlike other industries, getting service is often a literal life or death issue, yo…

Profit is the world's way of signaling that you are doing something in an efficient, effective, and long-term sustainable way. So, given that health care is one of the most fundamental individual needs, profit most definitely should be the goal. But health care is not the most fundamental need -- that would be food. I find it puzzling that people don't apply the same arguement to this need. Why not say that profit sh…

The problem with that viewpoint is it assumes people are inherently good; they aren't. When profit is the goal, people suffer. I find the idea that seeking profit automatically creates the best good rather naive and idealistic.

Of course people don't apply the same argument to food, food isn't scarce for most of us and few have problems acquiring it and the ability to produce it can't be easily collected in the hands of a few, anyone can grow their own food.

Anyone cannot operate on themselves and perform some life saving operation, and while those who can certainly deserve to be compensated greatly for that ability they walk a fine moral line knowing their product, or the refusal to provide it, will directly kill people. Doctors are much more like firemen and policeman that businessman. Society has certain expectations of them serving the greater good of the community and helping people when they're in need.

The free market is not the cure for every ill and seeking profit is not, and should not be the goal of every job. Greed is not some inherently good moral trait.

Re: How Rent Control Drives Out Affordable Housing

#82

Post by pelle » Wed, Dec 31, 2008, 2:08 AM UTC

gnaritas wrote: post #54

pelle wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Health care is no different than any other service. If you are able to increase the availability as well as lower the price it helps everyone. Including the poor.

Health is very different from other services, profit should not be the goal. Business does not attempt to help people, but to maximize profit, which does not necessarily mean increasing availability or lowering prices at all. It might be more profitable to dump the lower income people and jack up the prices on those who can afford it. Unlike other industries, getting service is often a literal life or death issue, yo…

Health is no different than other services in 99.9% of the cases. We should not optimize the entire system for that 0.1% of cases. The market optimizes everything for the better if it is allowed.

For the exceptions, use exception handling also known as charities such as non profit hospitals and health centers who already donate health care to the poor.

The increased efficiency and lower cost of a non regulated approach would benefit all and make it easier and cheaper to provide good care to everyone.

Re: How Rent Control Drives Out Affordable Housing

#83

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Dec 31, 2008, 2:12 AM UTC

ojbyrne wrote: post #69

jmtulloss wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question for both of you is how did you get the rent controlled apartment? I bet it wasn't through craigslist. Everybody I know in the city who lives under rent control (which, admittedly, is not very many) found their places through friends. Not that it's a bad thing, but it supports the idea that you have to be "connected" to get a place. Maybe not a lawyer or a judge, but having been around the city helps.

I lived in a rent-controlled apt in SF that I found through craiglist. It wasn't cheap, nor squalid - Similar to what the other people say. My experiences over 20 years of renting also say - landlords treat good tenants like gold - if you don't make noise, don't sell drugs, and pay on time, they generally are happy to not raise your rent.

[deleted]

Re: How Rent Control Drives Out Affordable Housing

#84

Post by gnaritas » Wed, Dec 31, 2008, 2:13 AM UTC

jmtulloss wrote: post #60

gnaritas wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Health is very different from other services, profit should not be the goal. Business does not attempt to help people, but to maximize profit, which does not necessarily mean increasing availability or lowering prices at all. It might be more profitable to dump the lower income people and jack up the prices on those who can afford it. Unlike other industries, getting service is often a literal life or death issue, yo…

I agree with you, but it's not that black and white. Insurance companies are usually the ones paying, not the individual. As such, they have a lot of control over the price (especially in the case of medicare). While it might be life or death for the individual, it's not for the insurance company.

Which is a big part of the problem, we've put an entity between doctor and patient who's motive is profit rather than helping the patient. Insurance companies figured out a long time ago that the best way to profit was to deny claims and avoid paying in any way they can.

An entire sub-industry has popped up around coding claims correctly because doctors have figured out what they can and can't get paid for, the effect being the insurance companies now basically dictate treatments rather than the doctor. Frankly it's extremely fucked up and it's caused entirely by companies seeing the most profit.

Re: How Rent Control Drives Out Affordable Housing

#85

Post by pelle » Wed, Dec 31, 2008, 2:16 AM UTC

gnaritas wrote: post #81

benl wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Profit is the world's way of signaling that you are doing something in an efficient, effective, and long-term sustainable way. So, given that health care is one of the most fundamental individual needs, profit most definitely should be the goal. But health care is not the most fundamental need -- that would be food. I find it puzzling that people don't apply the same arguement to this need. Why not say that profit sh…

The problem with that viewpoint is it assumes people are inherently good; they aren't. When profit is the goal, people suffer. I find the idea that seeking profit automatically creates the best good rather naive and idealistic. Of course people don't apply the same argument to food, food isn't scarce for most of us and few have problems acquiring it and the ability to produce it can't be easily collected in the hands…

In almost all cases profit helps us all. A free exchange benefits all parties. You have something I want, I have something you want.

When this situation gets distorted through monopoly or other forms of regulations it is generally speaking bad for everyone.

Greed is good. My greed is good for you and your greed is good for me. This is the most fundamental philosophy of entrepreneurship albeit said using a word most people through years of indoctrination think is bad.

This is also why I don't like the term social entrepreneurship. Any entrepreneurship that isn't kept a live through some sort of corruption or force is good for society as a whole.

Re: How Rent Control Drives Out Affordable Housing

#86

Post by gnaritas » Wed, Dec 31, 2008, 2:17 AM UTC

pelle wrote: post #82

gnaritas wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Health is very different from other services, profit should not be the goal. Business does not attempt to help people, but to maximize profit, which does not necessarily mean increasing availability or lowering prices at all. It might be more profitable to dump the lower income people and jack up the prices on those who can afford it. Unlike other industries, getting service is often a literal life or death issue, yo…

Health is no different than other services in 99.9% of the cases. We should not optimize the entire system for that 0.1% of cases. The market optimizes everything for the better if it is allowed. For the exceptions, use exception handling also known as charities such as non profit hospitals and health centers who already donate health care to the poor. The increased efficiency and lower cost of a non regulated approa…

> The market optimizes everything for the better if it is allowed.

Baloney. This is a belief, not a fact.

Re: How Rent Control Drives Out Affordable Housing

#87

Post by mmmurf » Wed, Dec 31, 2008, 2:18 AM UTC

eyeraw wrote: post #78

mmmurf wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does opposing the automotive bailout and the financial bailout constitute being a shill for big business? I'd say it's quite the opposite!

The right is inherently anti-union (hence not supporting automakers in this case) and pro-corporate. And all of Cato's positions about "personal responsibility" vs. government regulation (of tobacco, or oil, or whomever else pays them) is obviously a tactic to influence public opinion against regulation under the guise of being pro-individual. It's total bullshit. They're about as libertarian as my left nut.

What would an actual libertarian position be? How would it be argued? What regulation (and what bailout(s)) would it favor?

Re: How Rent Control Drives Out Affordable Housing

#88

Post by gnaritas » Wed, Dec 31, 2008, 2:21 AM UTC

pelle wrote: post #85

gnaritas wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with that viewpoint is it assumes people are inherently good; they aren't. When profit is the goal, people suffer. I find the idea that seeking profit automatically creates the best good rather naive and idealistic. Of course people don't apply the same argument to food, food isn't scarce for most of us and few have problems acquiring it and the ability to produce it can't be easily collected in the hands…

In almost all cases profit helps us all. A free exchange benefits all parties. You have something I want, I have something you want. When this situation gets distorted through monopoly or other forms of regulations it is generally speaking bad for everyone. Greed is good. My greed is good for you and your greed is good for me. This is the most fundamental philosophy of entrepreneurship albeit said using a word most p…

The world isn't that simple and by the way, monopoly is a natural outcome in a free market system exactly because it doesn't always work. It breaks down, that's why we regulate it. The only place the free market actually works is in libertarians imaginations because they think Atlas Shrugged somehow reflects reality.

Re: How Rent Control Drives Out Affordable Housing

#89

Post by loumf » Wed, Dec 31, 2008, 2:22 AM UTC

mhartl wrote: post #37

loumf wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aside from anecdotes, do you have access to any data that substantiates the claim that "The rent controlled units went to people with high incomes and political power" -- can you put a figure on it (50%, 60%, higher?). My grandparents lived in rent controlled apartments in NYC that they could not have afforded to stay in -- moved there in the 30's in neighborhoods that filled with gang violence -- but gentrified arou…

My grandparents lived in rent controlled apartments in NYC that they could not have afforded to stay in This is selection bias. Suppose the government raised the federal minimum wage to $50/hr. This would cause massive unemployment (and, no doubt, a thriving black market for labor), but some lucky low-income workers would keep their jobs. You could then point to one of those workers and say, "Hey, I know someone who…

I gave a counter-example to show how ridiculous it is to talk about this through anecdotes. Yes, it's selection bias -- the entire top-rated comment on this thread is full of anecdotes are data arguments. Thanks for the pointers on avoiding this error in the future -- sheesh.

Re: How Rent Control Drives Out Affordable Housing

#90

Post by r7000 » Wed, Dec 31, 2008, 2:27 AM UTC

fallentimes wrote: post #65

pg wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tarrifs are actually a particularly good example of markets routing around government interference. Routing around tariffs is called smuggling, and has been a huge business as long as there have been governments. I wasn't claiming, incidentally, that markets were totally immune to government interference-- just as networks are not immune to damage. Just that markets will always find whatever room you give them.

Ticket scalping also involves equally fun acts & regulations. Luckily the laws are changing (for the better) which is one reason why it was a good idea to invest in us :-D.

Ticketing has been a weird market. There is a strong expectation among consumers that there is a 'fixed price' (face value) and that anything else is 'unfair'. Demand is constrained completely by a venue's capacity leading to all the obvious problems for over-subscribed events.