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Redis is forked

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Re: Redis is forked

#161

Post by sanderjd »

snotrockets wrote: post #105
sanderjd wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure if this was a purposeful allusion or not, but I entirely agree that you "can't recall a gift" in exactly the same sense that you can't keep talking on a payphone for a long time when someone is clearly waiting; because, you know, we're living in a society!!

Unlike the payphone analogy, where there is metering rules, and as long as you abide by them, you can keep talking, even if it's impolite, there is a legal definition for gifts (it is, after all, a transfer of ownership, and such things are regulated), which, as far as I know, matches the social norm of not being able to claw those back.

Ha, except, to go full circle, then if you're using that legal definition of a "gift" requiring a transfer of ownership, it's clear that open source software is not actually a gift, because there is no transfer of ownership.

You can't have it both ways! If it's a "gift" in the colloquial sense of something freely given, then it breaks social convention to claw it back, but it is not illegal. If you want to use the legal definition of a "gift" - ie. for tax purposes, implying a transfer of ownership - then contributions to open source software are not at all a "gift" in that sense.

Re: Redis is forked

#162

Post by rhdunn »

Macha wrote: post #149
rhdunn wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm using Gitea locally. I haven't come across forgejo before. It seems to be forked on the basis of providing a fully open source solution (it states that some Gitea enterprise features are not present). Do you know what the main differences are and whether it is worth switching?

There are two main differences: 1. Gitea, Inc replaced the prior community leadership structure with one controlled by Gitea, Inc and have pivoted into being primarily about a hosted code SaaS they launched this year that didn't exist for the first 7 years of the project. They could do it because they had 2 of the 3 seats on the community stewardship organisation at the time to vote for it, but that wasn't always tru…

Thanks.

At the moment forgejo does not have features I'm interested in as I'm not making my internal gitea instance public. However, I'd be interested in it if it provides support for things like hierarchical project grouping and organiation/group-wide project and issue tracking. So I'm going to keep an eye on the project to see how it evolves.

One thing that concerns me is Forgejo's statement that they will diverge further from Gitea without migration commitments. This would make it harder for me -- and others -- to switch after upgrading to Gitea 1.22 and later. A similar concern is the other way around: if I switch to Forgejo and want to move back to Gitea, I won't be able to if the projects have sufficiently changed (e.g. if they implement project grouping differently).

Re: Redis is forked

#163

Post by Comma2976 »

alex_lav wrote: post #61
Comma2976 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hyperscalers weren't selling Terraform though, Hashicorp was losing to Terragrunt, Spacelift et al, who had decent to good offerings. I'd say Elasticsearch is still the comparison to make here for a product that clouds just resold, then again, Redis the company didn't build Redis the software and their latest marketing smells more of VC hawkery than any reasonable pitch

> Hashicorp was losing to Terragrunt, Spacelift et al, who had decent to good offerings. Would love some data in support of this statement. Not saying you're wrong necessarily, just it feels like a perception vs. reality comment potentially.

Don't have any data I must say, just a series of discussions here and elsewhere over the years, voicing either appreciation for the platforms above or displeasure with the logistics/price of TFcloud, e.g. with one I remember

https://old.reddit.com/r/devops/comments/eaq8bh/terraform_em...

The vast majority of projects that I've come across at work just had the tf CLI wrapped in a CI/CD pipeline + some bucket, but the managed competitors seemed to come up more often (compared to other tools/platforms) when people wanted to use/were using something as a service. Perhaps it's really just a perception thing, I never checked their financials

edit: I think I went off-track from the point. The point was that the ones selling managed versions were not the hyperscalers, but people building wrappers and similar around it. The other commenter with the list of fork-backers illustrates that nicely.

Re: Redis is forked

#164

Post by vertis »

cube2222 wrote: post #28
Thev00d00 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no incentive for users of tf to move, consumers are not impacted by the licensing changes. Opentofu hasn't shipped a 1.7 stable with removed blocks yet, whilst terraform is already on 1.8 with provider functions

Hey, tech lead of the project here! Just to clarify, provider-defined functions are coming in OpenTofu 1.7, along with e2e state encryption. Generally, I recommend not comparing version numbers of Terraform and OpenTofu post-1.6. Implementing the e2e state encryption was non-trivial, and we wanted to make sure we get it right, so that's why the release took us a while. We also got a slight additional delay due to nee…

I'm definitely in the camp that has moved my tiny company infra to opentofu. Thanks for all your hard work.

Re: Redis is forked

#165

Post by sanderjd »

dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #156
sanderjd wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all, you can "recall a gift", if it is legal. I don't think I've seen people arguing that these re-licensing actions are not legal . But if you mean that you can't recall a gift without making people mad, then yep, that's true! But keeping people from being mad is not the only thing that matters. But the real problem I have with, "I hope the lesson will be learned" is that the lesson people are learning is "…

> But the real problem I have with, "I hope the lesson will be learned" is that the lesson people are learning is "don't try to build ambitious software requiring a lot of work from a dedicated core team using an open source license; you're going to find yourself damned if you do and damned if you don't". Yeah, for things running server-side that could be used by Amazon and Microsoft, they should use SSPL from the st…

Yes, they definitely should use something like that from the start, in my view. But I think they won't, because there is now a lot of evidence that this will result in a bunch of bad press, whereas just making it proprietary will go without comment.

What incentive do companies have to do this?

Re: Redis is forked

#166

Post by waiwai933 »

xmprt wrote: post #70
waiwai933 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That works while OpenTofu and Terraform files are compatible - but once they no longer are, presumably you'd have to standardise on one or the other.

The point is that once they are no longer compatible, people would standardize on the one that they're familiar with which is most likely the one that's running on their machine.

But currently, people are equally comfortable with both; the CLI commands are exactly identical between the two, save for the name of the binary itself. In any org where both are in use, if people are forced to choose at some point, they will have to balance many other factors besides familiarity, such as features and confidence in the platform.

Re: Redis is forked

#167

Post by marcos100 »

bevekspldnw wrote: post #14

As somebody who pulled down an open source project I find this trope of FOSS losing its way for greed utterly disingenuous. People need to put food on the table, period. I’ve had people take my work and make more money from it than I have, with no attribution or credit. Then I pulled it down and got a lot of people asking why it’s no longer free, when I tell them I can sell them a license they don’t even reply. I car…

Do you share a part of you charge with the people that contributed? If not, what you're doing is the same as what others did when they took your work and profited from it.

You've all agreed what can and can't be done with your code based on the license you used.

If you want to make money with software, it's proprietary or dual-licensed (A)GPL with CLA. Anything else you'll bait and switch on people.

Re: Redis is forked

#168

Post by growse »

jrochkind1 wrote: post #113
slashdev wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With the noise people make when you don't use an OSI open-source license, little wonder. But when Redis started I think we didn't yet boardly understand the limitations of OSI licenses in the era of big tech cloud computing. To people starting projects today, you have no excuse, we know better. Don't use OSI open-source unless it's entirely a labor of love that you're giving away free. OSI Open-source business models…

It looks to me like people start with open source licenses because that's helpful to get them market-share (and in some cases community contributors and maintainers), and then they switch to a non-open-source license reserving certain rights to profit to them hoping to maintain the users that they wouldn't have gotten if they started with that license. I am curious for examples of any projects now *starting( with one…

Cockroachdb started with BSL I think.

Re: Redis is forked

#169

Post by jrochkind1 »

growse wrote: post #168
jrochkind1 wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It looks to me like people start with open source licenses because that's helpful to get them market-share (and in some cases community contributors and maintainers), and then they switch to a non-open-source license reserving certain rights to profit to them hoping to maintain the users that they wouldn't have gotten if they started with that license. I am curious for examples of any projects now *starting( with one…

Cockroachdb started with BSL I think.

Wikipedia suggests it was initially apache, changed to BSL in 2019. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CockroachDB. But still perhaps an example of fairly quick switch to BSL before it had gotten wide market/mind share? I don't know the history.

Re: Redis is forked

#170

Post by cube2222 »

vertis wrote: post #164
cube2222 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey, tech lead of the project here! Just to clarify, provider-defined functions are coming in OpenTofu 1.7, along with e2e state encryption. Generally, I recommend not comparing version numbers of Terraform and OpenTofu post-1.6. Implementing the e2e state encryption was non-trivial, and we wanted to make sure we get it right, so that's why the release took us a while. We also got a slight additional delay due to nee…

I'm definitely in the camp that has moved my tiny company infra to opentofu. Thanks for all your hard work.

That’s awesome! Appreciate the kind words :)
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