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They didn’t ask to go viral

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Re: They didn’t ask to go viral

#161

Social media truly is the opioid of today's society. While browsing /r/all, I ran across a post from a very popular sub which had an airport worker stripping in the airport, flailing on the floor, etc. No one knows why, could have been drugs, could have been a mental defect. Yet many of the thousands of responses were laughing because they could see the man's flaccid penis. While we don't know what caused the man to…

I know I'm not saying anything new here, but I'm always shocked by just how vicious the Reddit community is, especially from a group who considers themselves highly intelligent (compared to those "other" people). Videos like you describe are there every time I visit, along with fight videos and comments making up a back story as to what the victim did to deserve it, etc. Sometimes I wonder why things like vigilanteis…

How many millions of people post on Reddit?

Reddit is just made of everyone, and it turns out that everyone is a bunch of jerks.

Re: They didn’t ask to go viral

#162
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know I'm not saying anything new here, but I'm always shocked by just how vicious the Reddit community is, especially from a group who considers themselves highly intelligent (compared to those "other" people). Videos like you describe are there every time I visit, along with fight videos and comments making up a back story as to what the victim did to deserve it, etc. Sometimes I wonder why things like vigilanteis…

It shouldn't surprise you that online communities are a reflection of human nature. The behaviors we see are the effects of groupthink taken to its extreme. Even in "civilized" forums such as this one, you'll notice people conforming with the group mentality, and deleting their posts if they get downvoted. When there is little to no moderation, and viciousness is acceptable within the group, this behavior will spiral…

Reddit is far worse than human nature, I believe. The upvote and downvote system favours people that are authoritarian (as a personality trait). There is this sect like wibe nowadays on Reddit.

Re: They didn’t ask to go viral

#163
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It shouldn't surprise you that online communities are a reflection of human nature. The behaviors we see are the effects of groupthink taken to its extreme. Even in "civilized" forums such as this one, you'll notice people conforming with the group mentality, and deleting their posts if they get downvoted. When there is little to no moderation, and viciousness is acceptable within the group, this behavior will spiral…

I think you're largely right, but IMO the difference between what happens online and what happens offline is that you have to look people in the eye offline and you may encounter them randomly in person. There's a moderating function that generally (not always) keeps the heat down. Same for pile-ons. I'm not so naive to think that they never happen offline, but there's a higher cost to doing them than there is when a…

People that write on the internet are probably just on the average less sane. There are prevalent types on the interwebs that I just never meet outside.

Re: They didn’t ask to go viral

#164
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Finally someone spells it out. Ever since the first twitter US president I've noticed a great uptick in politicians and other public figures doing deplorable things for the sake of attention. They'd be publically called out and ridiculed for months on end, and meanwhile you wouldn't hear anything about other people at all. There's nothing I can describe this as other than "trolling", yet people always look at me conf…

It's old. "There's no such thing as bad publicity". The objective is to use these non-voting high replication nodes to reach your voting public.

> use these non-voting high replication nodes to reach your voting public

Nice, this really distilled the strategy down to something tangible for me, thanks.

Re: They didn’t ask to go viral

#165
post #3

The "everyone:1" ratio of internet criticism also has had an interesting effect on politics. Given the sheer amount of vitriol directed at politicians no sane person would run for election. A plausible base-case scenario is a group of socially disabled internet dwellers dedicate their life to hounding you for imagined wrongs. Let alone the pressure of making any decision in a situation where large groups of people ar…

Yes, this trend has been becoming more observable - particularly in the past ~10 years IMO. Of course, as another commenter points out, it has been increasingly adopted by some politicians themselves.

At some point, all of the "megaphones" we handed every single person with access to the internet, started to be more and more co-opted by actors whose primary use is propaganda, trolling, etc. And, particularly, in the sense of what has been termed "coordinated inauthentic activity" and the like. So, whereas, 15+ years ago you could look at comments on YouTube, say, and see a mix of discussion and some 'low quality' comments of various types (like trolling, random nonsense and non sequiturs, etc.), more recently, there are specific efforts to hijack comment threads, "stir the pot", etc.

A lot of the "bad actor networks" hinge, as usual when it comes to humans / statistics / networks, on a small set of "high volume central nodes". Although, apparently, that has been evolving as well, presumably as a sort of war continues to play out between companies hosting various platforms, and people, groups, countries, etc. who wish to exploit their availability. [1]

There are two potential mitigations I see forming more and more. One appears to be proven in a practical setting, already, though it has negatives that have also been fairly substantially discussed. The other involves a tool gaining more and more ground only even more recently:

1) Turn off / remove general (and especially unmoderated) "comment" features*

2) Use increasingly sophisticated ML and other models to handle various types of activity and language that are being deployed for corrupt purposes.

The problem with "1" that is most frequently cited is that this can push "networks of bad actors" more into the shadows - where it's harder to know what they are up to etc. However, this is obviously a trade-off against their reach in general etc. In the shorter-term (and, I personally think, likely even in medium- to longer-term), this clearly "works". It substantially reduces harms to individuals, various social groups, societies as a whole (arguably), etc.

The second option is of less clear value, so far. Automated moderation has been around for 30+ years - that's about the time I have personal experience with. It's only in the past 7 - 10 years that more sophisticated statistical models etc. seem to be being deployed (AFAIK). And, we are now in a period of really rather more significant change with ML capabilities and the like. I'm inclined to think we're still not at the level required to make this "easy" / "silver bullet". But, I also think there are likely significant improvements being implemented and seen in practice, currently. Of a type that is relatively "transparent" to most users ... so, not being involved in any such efforts, not having spent time looking into these efforts more closely, I'm entirely speculating here.

In any case, much as "publishing" went through periods of less and more "regulation"**, we've had a reasonable period of very low "regulation" of the internet. Regulation need not, of course, mean government regulation. But, it seems increasingly likely that regulation in some form or other will increasingly need to be imposed on the internet (at least the "mass / easily accessible" parts) to diminish the influence of bad actors and keep the internet valuable for everyone (else).

* Obviously, this depends on nature of platform - for many platforms, these features are far from core. Something like Twitter/X is, of course, pretty much "pure comments" ... so, irrelevant there, regardless of who is running it.

** There were periods where pamphleteers in America (where I'm more familiar with the history) were running wild in political and other discourse, and then this was brought under more of a semblance of and practical "moderation"

[1] E.g., https://dl.acm.org/doi/abs/10.1145/3522756 (just one of a slew of relatively recent papers, more and more being published each year, of course)

Re: They didn’t ask to go viral

#166
post #92
post #8

The online shaming culture at tumblr, twitter and reddit was what convinced me that you need to stay pseudonymous on the internet at all cost. There are so many people that participate in this and haven't realized yet that they are being an asshole to random strangers.

Online I always try to talk about people as if the person I'm talking about would read it. It's always easy to be harsh when no one's watching, but the thing is that online you never know if they are. This doesn't mean I don't criticize posts or people, I just do it as if that person would read it. I started doing this after some of my weblog posts (mostly about programming) ended up on Reddit and HN, and I read some…

reddit is pretty bad now, I didn't realize when I was there regularly but after a break it's really shocking.

I went there last night to read any first person accounts of the streamer riot yesterday in New York's Union Square. Instead there was a lot of racism and hate.

Re: They didn’t ask to go viral

#167
post #3

The "everyone:1" ratio of internet criticism also has had an interesting effect on politics. Given the sheer amount of vitriol directed at politicians no sane person would run for election. A plausible base-case scenario is a group of socially disabled internet dwellers dedicate their life to hounding you for imagined wrongs. Let alone the pressure of making any decision in a situation where large groups of people ar…

...I think we'll see detectable pressure for only risk taking narcissists to run for public office. Even beyond what is usual for politics...

I know you added the "even beyond what is usual" part, but I think it's been clear since way before the US existed that decent people dont pursue power.

Re: They didn’t ask to go viral

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For sure. There was a show called “LivePD” that took live video as someone was arrested by the police. I watched for years. Now it feels so gross…if someone is having the potentially-worst moment of their life, society should offer them the decency of not putting it on live TV.

Didn’t those people all sign releases?

Maybe, and kinda.

From a NYT opinion piece[0] a few years ago:

> But “Cops” cameras, of course, are not news cameras, so unlike a traditional news crew, the shows’ producers have to obtain the written legal consent of every suspect whose face appears on camera. The producers of “Cops” claim they do. We found a different reality. Tracking down the people who have been filmed by “Cops” is not easy. But of the 11 suspects we interviewed, all but one said they either did not give their legal consent to appear on the show, were too inebriated to consent knowingly or were coerced into signing — with the police and producers, troublingly, working together to get those signatures.

[0] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/18/opinion/cops-podcast-inve...

Re: They didn’t ask to go viral

#169
post #3

The "everyone:1" ratio of internet criticism also has had an interesting effect on politics. Given the sheer amount of vitriol directed at politicians no sane person would run for election. A plausible base-case scenario is a group of socially disabled internet dwellers dedicate their life to hounding you for imagined wrongs. Let alone the pressure of making any decision in a situation where large groups of people ar…

...I think we'll see detectable pressure for only risk taking narcissists to run for public office. Even beyond what is usual for politics... I know you added the "even beyond what is usual" part, but I think it's been clear since way before the US existed that decent people dont pursue power.

That doesn’t capture the whole picture. Great leaders may not have been decent people, but it’s also clear that being a decent person isn’t what makes for a good leader.

The concern would be something like, only a strong narcissist would risk extreme public scrutiny, but while great leaders might exhibit narcissism, they have other more dominant traits. Is any overwhelming narcissist capable of gathering advice and delegating effectively?

Re: They didn’t ask to go viral

#170
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interestingly, the most successful politicians in recent years have adopted the techniques of old-school internet trolls. It goes like this: 1. Do or say something that's a bit edgy and controversial. 2. Pull out a lawn chair as the opposition attempts to stir up a shit storm. 3. Under no circumstances engage with the criticism directed at you, just be somewhere else when anything is coming your way. Never defend or…

completely agree with this. it's difficult, but the right answer is to ignore all media contexts and criticisms of political candidates AND their actions, and entirely focus on the ground truth of "what" they have achieved in the past, and not the "why". That seems risky, as motives matter, but there simply isn't a way to get an unvarnished assessment of a persons motives from the media (mass or otherwise). even stil…

Many of the most explicitly trollish politicians make their motives explicit and easy to recognize. I don't think ignoring "why" is a good strategy; I'd rather vote for less-effective people who aren't successfully tearing down civil society.
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