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The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

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Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#161

Post by jakewins »

rafaelero wrote: post #130
xxpor wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Evidence? Evidence against: https://davidcard.berkeley.edu/papers/mariel-impact.pdf

The evidence is math. Even if you have a flat rate and everyone in the population is equally benefitted with social services, there are 50% of people who are contributing less than they take and 50% who are contributing more than they take. That looks even worse when we relax the flax rate assumption (most countries have progressive taxation) and the amount of social benefits a given segment receives (poor people ten…

Isn’t this assuming people stay in fixed “compartments” over their lifetime?

My experience with social safety nets in EU is that they have been there when I’ve needed them - when I was a poor student, when I was sick — and now that I’m in a different life phase I pay that forward

Your math makes sense at any given instant, but who is on what side changes if you view it over time

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#162

Post by steveoscaro »

dougmwne wrote: post #73

Here’s a better comparison. The thing that really hurt the Eurozone was the 2011 - 2013 recession that the US did not experience. Plus there’s a slower growth rate even in the good times. https://freedomandprosperity.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/... That said, these numbers are very misleading and do not show well what a person’s life looks like in the US. By my own anecdotal estimation, in the EU low and medium in…

Very interesting comment. I've read it a few times.

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#163

Post by sonicshadow »

janalsncm wrote: post #158

This is a bit of a frame trap. Here’s another metric: ==2021== Life expectancy in EU: 80 Life expectancy in US: 76 ==Rolling back to 2008== Life expectancy in EU: 79 Life expectancy in US: 78 What’s the point? Maybe GDP isn’t the most important indicator. The US can double it’s GDP by making healthcare more expensive and extracting every last dime from the elderly, but can it actually improve quality of life for peop…

What's the point of living an extra few years either? I'd rather die at 70 after having lived a healthy life, than 80 and suffered the last 10 years

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#164

Post by elishah »

Sterm wrote: post #37
slibhb wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The economy doubling in size helps most people even if the resulting wealth is unevenly distributed. Goods, services, technologies, jobs, etc are good.

If it did US life expectancy wouldn't lower today than it was in 2008.

That's a bit of a tenuous connection.

That decline is an anomaly. The majority of it is attributable to covid, and a significant minority attributable to fentanyl: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/nchs_press_releases/2022/...

I do agree that the "rising tide raises all boats" rhetoric is largely bunk. But I don't think that this one particular measure, taken at an anomalous time, is sound footing for a counterargument.

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#165

Post by SketchySeaBeast »

whiddershins wrote: post #132
dougmwne wrote: post #73

Here’s a better comparison. The thing that really hurt the Eurozone was the 2011 - 2013 recession that the US did not experience. Plus there’s a slower growth rate even in the good times. https://freedomandprosperity.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/... That said, these numbers are very misleading and do not show well what a person’s life looks like in the US. By my own anecdotal estimation, in the EU low and medium in…

[flagged]

You seem to be confusing wealth with excess. I don't think conspicuous consumption is a virtue.

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#166

Post by sonicshadow »

gitfan86 wrote: post #76
seydor wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

while it's true and it s very unequal the difference has become so big that even the poorest americans are richer than most europeans.

Yes but so many Americans are on Instagram and Tiktok that they feel poor since they are inundated with stories about people doing better than them.

It's just an extension of the American culture, everyone is a temporarily embarrassed millionaire, whereas in Europe it seems like people sit around waiting for entitlements to be handed to them and then riot in the street when they're not

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#167

Post by cypress66 »

janalsncm wrote: post #158

This is a bit of a frame trap. Here’s another metric: ==2021== Life expectancy in EU: 80 Life expectancy in US: 76 ==Rolling back to 2008== Life expectancy in EU: 79 Life expectancy in US: 78 What’s the point? Maybe GDP isn’t the most important indicator. The US can double it’s GDP by making healthcare more expensive and extracting every last dime from the elderly, but can it actually improve quality of life for peop…

Most of that life expectancy gap is due to obesity I'd guess.

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#169

Post by landemva »

mrb wrote: post #122
dogma1138 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one uses PPP for measuring growth, GDP PPP can increase whilst your economy contracts. PPP isn’t a good measure for population’s wealth or quality of life especially for developed economies either. The economy of the US is still twice that of the EU and its global purchasing power has also pretty much doubled.

" GDP PPP can increase whilst your economy contracts. " Still, if PPP GDP increases, with all else being equal (eg. stable population) it would imply the standard of living is increasing. That is why PPP GDP captures a more accurate measure of the real world. Said another way, what truly matters isn't "GDP growth", but changes in purchasing power/quality of life.

>> it would imply the standard of living is increasing.

In USA, GDP includes the explosion of numbers of hospital admin staffers, energy prices doubled, and production of munitions which are given to Europe. That GDP does not increase my quality of life.

Re: The US economy and the EU were the same size in 2008, the US is now nearly 2X

#170

Post by rafaelero »

jakewins wrote: post #161
rafaelero wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The evidence is math. Even if you have a flat rate and everyone in the population is equally benefitted with social services, there are 50% of people who are contributing less than they take and 50% who are contributing more than they take. That looks even worse when we relax the flax rate assumption (most countries have progressive taxation) and the amount of social benefits a given segment receives (poor people ten…

Isn’t this assuming people stay in fixed “compartments” over their lifetime? My experience with social safety nets in EU is that they have been there when I’ve needed them - when I was a poor student, when I was sick — and now that I’m in a different life phase I pay that forward Your math makes sense at any given instant, but who is on what side changes if you view it over time

Take a look at net contribution to Danish welfare state over time. https://www.economist.com/sites/default/files/images/print-e...
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