A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job • Hacker News Board

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#161

Post by hutzlibu » Sun, Jan 08, 2023, 2:24 PM UTC

gnull wrote: post #152

kergonath wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is Islam at all compatible with secular values in the same country? It is. There are plenty of more or less practising Muslims who behave perfectly well and are strongly opposed to theocracy. In the same way that there are plenty of white Christians who don’t feel the urge to take a gun and mow down blasphemers. > And second won't work because Shariah law gives very concrete directions on dealing with non-believers…

You're right, I shouldn't be generalising. > Lots of Muslims do not believe that Shariah law should be applied. I feel that one big difference of Islam is that it makes the rules very explicit, from how the government should be organized to the last detail of how you should wash your hands (and how often). Christianity, on the other hand, has very few concrete regulations, but instead a ton of metaphysical, mystical…

"Christianity, on the other hand, has very few concrete regulations"

Well, have a look in the old Testament then. There are very explicit rules about how to treat homosexuals and heretics for example and they are not nice.

(I like the brick testament - famous bible quotes illustrated with Lego stones)

https://thebricktestament.com/the_law/homosexuality/lv20_13a...

And yes, there is also Jesus, but among other things he has (supposedly) said,

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law of Moses or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them."

https://thebricktestament.com/the_teachings_of_jesus/on_the_...

So it is really not that simple. But the basic comparison between Jesus and Muhammed, well the one seemed to be mostly a love preaching hippie and the other mainly a warlord. But I know I have met Muslims who were devout believers, but who would never use violence, except to defend themself.

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#162

Post by mensetmanusman » Sun, Jan 08, 2023, 2:24 PM UTC

MadsRC wrote: post #22

benj111 wrote: post #3

Isn't it prohibited to depict any of god's creations in some/many/all Islamic sects? Thus all the interesting geometric patterns. Does that mean that virtually all Western art is islamaphobic? At what point does the demand that Western art doesn't do something that offend Islam itself become westernphobic.

It is not prohibited by the Quran at all, at least I’ve never found a reference in the Quran that indicates that it is forbidden. Please do correct me if I’m wrong, it’s been many years since I last read the Quran. The Bible however, does actually forbid it: Exodus 20:4 I seem to remember that Jehovas Witnesses actually practice this as they take the words of the Bible literally. I’m by no way an expert on theology,…

“In Exodus 20:4 God condemned the carving of statues for the sake of worshipping them as idols–a blasphemy the Catholic Church also condemns.

In Exodus 25:18-20, on the other hand, God commands Moses to carve statues for a religious purpose: two cherubim which would sit atop the Ark of the Covenant.

Notice that these angelic images were to serve such an exalted purpose (not because the statues themselves were in any way intrinsically exalted but because of the use to which they would be put) that God was very exacting in the instructions he gave Moses as to the materials to be used and the posture in which they were to be carved.

Similar divine commands to carve statues and embroider images of various religious objects are found in Exodus 21:6-9, Numbers 21:6-9, 1 Kings 6:23-28, and 1 Kings 7:23- 39. In each case, the statue or embroidered image was intended by God for a religious use.

Although the worship of anything, not just statues, in place of the True God is idolatry, there are times when statues are not just tolerable but recommended.

Just as those Old Testament statues were ordered fashioned by God to reminded the Israelites of heavenly realities, Catholic statues of Jesus and the angels and the saints serve the same purpose.”

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#163

Post by wazoox » Sun, Jan 08, 2023, 2:25 PM UTC

morby wrote: post #90

wazoox wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine the harm a group of those fanatics can achieve if one student can make a whole University comply to his intolerant whims. Karl Popper famously said that an open and tolerant society must manage carefully the intolerant... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

You realize there are 2 million Muslims living in America without any problem right? Take your bigotry elsewhere, HN is typically more elevated than that.

I have no qualms with Muslims anywhere. However I despise fanatics be they Muslims or Christians or Jews or whatever religion. I hate equally the Talibans, the Ayatollahs, the Zionist far-right in Israel, the racist nationalist Hindus, and the crazy racist Bible-thumpers in the US.

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#164

Post by wazoox » Sun, Jan 08, 2023, 2:36 PM UTC

totalZero wrote: post #133

wazoox wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't Western art, it's classical Persian art, done by Muslims for Muslims. This is beyond stupid, it's plain fanaticism. These students should be sent to Iran or Afghanistan to get their feelings right. I have absolutely no patience for this sort of fascism disguised as victimisation.

Your lack of patience notwithstanding, it helps to take into consideration the fact that Islamic cultural practices vary from place to place. Saying that something is Persian doesn't fully capture the context. Sudanese Muslim culture is extremely conservative and until recently included laws against apostasy. The student who complained comes from this cultural background. Persians are generally from a different sect…

> mutual respect

That's the point. This student obviously doesn't have any respect for the country and the culture he's currently living in. He has a point to make and a war to wage.

And that's not xenophobic to say that; I've hosted an Afghan refugees for months. I didn't try to feed him pork, and he didn't try to stab me for eating ham or not praying for Allah. There are decent people everywhere. You can be an oppressed refugee, and still be a fascistic, intolerant moron; you can be a white cis male billionaire and still be a good person (this one's tough though). Being a victim buys you no moral superiority at all. Being a decent person only does.

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#165

Post by gnull » Sun, Jan 08, 2023, 2:36 PM UTC

hutzlibu wrote: post #161

gnull wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right, I shouldn't be generalising. > Lots of Muslims do not believe that Shariah law should be applied. I feel that one big difference of Islam is that it makes the rules very explicit, from how the government should be organized to the last detail of how you should wash your hands (and how often). Christianity, on the other hand, has very few concrete regulations, but instead a ton of metaphysical, mystical…

"Christianity, on the other hand, has very few concrete regulations" Well, have a look in the old Testament then. There are very explicit rules about how to treat homosexuals and heretics for example and they are not nice. (I like the brick testament - famous bible quotes illustrated with Lego stones) https://thebricktestament.com/the_law/homosexuality/lv20_13a... And yes, there is also Jesus, but among other things…

That still fits my idea of "few".

And also doesn't Christianity give some good excuses to question or review these? Especially, considering that New Testament builds up on top of the Old Testament. I'm asking about the stuff around the quotes you've shown (otherwise we could fall for confirmation bias).

Please understand me correctly. I'm not saying Christianity doesn't have cruel or bad things. I'm saying it doesn't give one concrete, final, unchangeable set of rules. With Christian rules, it's easier to find excuse to augment or re-interpret them. I'm not saying there's no rules.

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#166

Post by gnull » Sun, Jan 08, 2023, 2:43 PM UTC

teppn wrote: post #148

jdthedisciple wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If LGBTQ are not OK with their gender and the movement's figureheads being talked about in ways that are not within the rules of their safe spaces, they shouldn't be shoving it down everyone's throats constantly, and we should act as if they don't exist. You think being LGBTQ is important? I don't care, I can't talk about them anyway, so it won't be part of my world of ideas. This has been my position on this topic s…

This is unironically a very good point. The intolerance that many trans-rights activists show to those who don't accept that a man with a 'female gender identity' is a woman is similar to the intolerance that many followers of Islam show to non-believers. No-one on the gender critical side has been beheaded yet, but there is a surprisingly large "kill the terfs" movement that parallels the extremism of Islamists.

They aren't committing atrocities because they don't have the resources for that, not because they are ethical and chose not to. Weakness is not a virtue, we shouldn't give them credit for it.

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#167

Post by IshKebab » Sun, Jan 08, 2023, 2:48 PM UTC

umarniz wrote: post #14

Edit as this is flagged by many people already: My opinion is all art and historical text should be discussed and talked about. Apparently an attempt to share the context is not very appreciated here. No horse in the race but I find it important to try to understand the perspective from all sides. Apparently its similar to showing a swastika or hail hitler. People have been punished for that as well: https://www.thef…

You mean like how a Swastika is shorthand for "I support the extermination of Jews and black people"... An image of Mohammed is shorthand for "I support stoning women who don't cover their faces"?

I dunno if that is quite right! Context matters.

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#168

Post by hutzlibu » Sun, Jan 08, 2023, 2:49 PM UTC

gnull wrote: post #165

hutzlibu wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Christianity, on the other hand, has very few concrete regulations" Well, have a look in the old Testament then. There are very explicit rules about how to treat homosexuals and heretics for example and they are not nice. (I like the brick testament - famous bible quotes illustrated with Lego stones) https://thebricktestament.com/the_law/homosexuality/lv20_13a... And yes, there is also Jesus, but among other things…

That still fits my idea of "few". And also doesn't Christianity give some good excuses to question or review these? Especially, considering that New Testament builds up on top of the Old Testament. I'm asking about the stuff around the quotes you've shown (otherwise we could fall for confirmation bias). Please understand me correctly. I'm not saying Christianity doesn't have cruel or bad things. I'm saying it doesn't…

"I'm saying it doesn't give one concrete, final, unchangeable set of rules."

Like I said, it is complicated and up for debate. I have heard many conflicting viewpoints about it. Some take the whole bible literal, including the literal laws of the old testament - and they are not just a few, but many, many explicit laws about everything. More are mainly literal about the 10 commandments. And for some the only law is Jesus saying: "Love other people like yourself".

Since being raised catholic, I know quite a lot about the bible and less about the coran, but as far as I understand "With Christian rules, it's easier to find excuse to augment or re-interpret them." this is possible there as well, as Mohammed also said conflicting things, was softer in the beginning and harsher in the end, so you can also pick what you like. Hijab for example is not an explicite rule. And about Homosexuals, well, you probably won't find anything tolerant in the coran about it, but I think you won't find something in the bible either. What matters to me, is what people are doing.

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#169

Post by ModernMech » Sun, Jan 08, 2023, 2:51 PM UTC

bonbonbonj wrote: post #65

kergonath wrote: post #56

The fact that people describing themselves as progressive are fighting to forbid blasphemy has got to be the worst “freedom is slavery” newspeak in the last decade. When did it become acceptable for one sect to dictate what we are allowed to talk about? They are the enthusiastic useful idiots for dark age theocrats, the exact translation of our despicable white nationalists and Christian supremacists.

That is unfortunately a feature of modern-day progressivism. There are a number of other 'blasphemies' that it condemns (that are actually often censored on HN too, in the name of civility) as well. I miss the progressivism of old, where there was more of an emphasis on tolerance even when one disagrees.

> That is unfortunately a feature of modern-day progressivism.

You'll find this is a feature of all isms. Even the free speech absolutists ban the blasphemers when given the chance.

Re: A Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

#170

Post by ModernMech » Sun, Jan 08, 2023, 2:54 PM UTC

pnf wrote: post #88

janalsncm wrote: post #37

> Dr. López Prater’s situation was especially precarious. She is an adjunct, one of higher education’s underclass of teachers, working for little pay and receiving few of the workplace protections enjoyed by tenured faculty members. I hope this bit doesn’t get lost in the conversation. Tenure seems to be extremely hard to get, even for very smart people who (in my opinion) fully deserved it.

Absent a radical retrenchment of reactionary-style teaching institutions, I don't see how "getting tenure" is a viable strategy going forward. The institutions have radically shifted their construction to be administration/student-centered rather than professor-centered. It may be that tenure as an institution could not survive the massive growth of the university system. Like any guild, membership growth must be lim…

> I don't see how "getting tenure" is a viable strategy going forward.

It's not, which is why many schools are moving away from tenured faculty and more toward contract instructors. They're paid like regular faculty (not pennies like adjuncts) but aren't on a tenure track. 3-5 year contracts give better job security than a typical job, but not a guaranteed job for life.