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Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

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Re: Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

#161

Post by faeriechangling »

8ytecoder wrote: post #129
faeriechangling wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a semantic dispute over how free speech should be defined which is wrapped up in your views of the subject to begin with, but in my view the most consistent way to define the topic is that free speech is "the notion that people should speak freely without fear of social sanction". When I think of somebody who supports free speech, I think of somebody who: - Speaks in a less filtered way - Brushes off people…

Hidden in your notion of free speech is the expectation that I shut up when you say something offensive to me or don’t agree with - “Brushes off people saying something offensive about them”. That’s what I’m taking an issue with.

Hmm you're right, I suppose you're correct it would be more free speech purist to simply not have an opinion on censorship whatsoever, but to still not engage in it themselves. Censorship can ironically itself be a form of free speech.

However I will mention that the "paradox of tolerance" posits that if you don't censor those who would censor others, society will end up with more censorship. So there is an argument that somebody who is totally in favor of free speech, EXCEPT the free speech of those who censor others, is a more advocate of free speech than somebody who is for free speech in all situations. This is arguably game theoretically better than the former strategy.

Re: Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

#162

Post by neonsunset »

illuminerdy wrote: post #34
seydor wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

according to the study, a valid hypothesis is that hn became more stupid more seriously, the shift is not just HN it is everywhere. We have generations of people who have been grown up to self-censor at every step, so by natural extension freedom of speech is not a priority. Urbanization and the evergreen/growth/globalist agenda that comes with it is also in favor of restrictions that maintain the cohesion of large c…

Somewhere along the line, we stopped teaching children that everybody doesn't have to agree with you. And now those children have grown into adults who want only those opinions of which they approve to be heard. No free and open society can survive with that kind of thinking.

The adults are kids with elaborate excuses for their behavior.

Re: Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

#164

Post by glerk »

citizenkeen wrote: post #127
rmatt2000 wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should spend some time on a college campus. Shouting down speakers and deplatforming non-progressives is more common than one might think.

That is perfectly in line with freedom of speech. Is the government showing up and arresting the speakers? No? Then freedom of speech is intact.

I’m so tired of this argument. Who cares if it’s the government, private business, or other citizens who do the censorship? The result is the same: censorship. Next you’re gonna tell me to go build my own university/social media platform/payment processor/ISP/etc. if I don’t like it.

Re: Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

#165

Post by throwawayacc2 »

cortesoft wrote: post #105
Dig1t wrote: post #55

I grew up in the US being told that freedom of speech was a virtue, something that our country did very well and I always thought that it was a shared value. It's very surprising to me to see that change in such a short span, or possibly it was not as popular or widespread as I thought it was growing up and I just never noticed. Is it the internet that has caused this uptick in the number of people who think free spe…

I have not heard any group calling for free speech to be blocked. Who is calling for people to be arrested for what they say? Or to be blocked from being able to say it out loud? I think what you mean is that people are calling for internet platforms to kick out certain groups. This is in no way a call against freedom of speech. I am not sure why people suddenly believe that being for 'free speech' means that other p…

> Or to be blocked from being able to say it out loud

Proponents of hate speech laws and their silent enablers would be one answer. Certainly not the only one.

> I think what you mean is that people are calling for internet platforms to kick out certain groups. This is in no way a call against freedom of speech.

You keep telling yourself self that. Especially when social values will change again as they always do and you will find your self shut off from society. You just keep telling yourself that’s not a loss of free speech.

> I am not sure why people suddenly believe that being for 'free speech' means that other people have to provide private infrastructure for those people to spread their speech.

I am not sure why people suddenly believe that being for ‘equality between the races' means that other people have to provide private shops for those black people to shop in - Someone with your thinking not that far away in the past

Tell me, should shop owners be allowed to ban the blacks from their shops? Or is it just the backers that have to make cakes for the gays? Or perhaps it’s the age old “one rule for thee and another for me”?

> Free Speech was never about requiring private citizens to provide a platform

Then why are there laws like ADA or title VII of the Civil Rights Act? Give me a break. You can’t have it both ways. Just admit it, drop the pretence, be honest. Just say it out loud. You believe there are undesirable groups in society and those groups should not enjoy the same rights and opportunities as the rest.

And once you admit to your self that is what you actually believe, reflect for just one second and understand in whose philosophical company you find yourself in.

Re: Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

#166

Post by d23 »

causality0 wrote: post #155
cortesoft wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have not heard any group calling for free speech to be blocked. Who is calling for people to be arrested for what they say? Or to be blocked from being able to say it out loud? I think what you mean is that people are calling for internet platforms to kick out certain groups. This is in no way a call against freedom of speech. I am not sure why people suddenly believe that being for 'free speech' means that other p…

I have not heard any group calling for free speech to be blocked. Who is calling for people to be arrested for what they say? Or to be blocked from being able to say it out loud? I think you'll find a significant portion of the HN userbase supports the idea of the police arresting people for saying racist things on the internet. Mostly Europeans who live in places where that's already the law, but Americans as well.…

> I think you'll find a significant portion of the HN userbase supports the idea of the police arresting people for saying racist things on the internet.

I genuinely can't wrap my head around how someone could possibly think this is true.

Re: Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

#167

Post by CharlesW »

bigbasedwolf wrote: post #85

Not surprising in the least. Anyone who has browsed 4chan instinctively senses that the pendulum swings from downright madness to sheer brilliance on a post-by-post basis, and this is something you can’t really find on other sites no matter how much you analyze the so called “signal to noise ratio.” You can’t have an open and intellectually gratifying discussion if you know there are things you cannot say. So the top…

> You can’t have an open and intellectually gratifying discussion if you know there are things you cannot say.

False. There are always things you cannot say if you truly want to have an open and intellectually gratifying discussion.

Freedom of speech, legally and conceptually, has never meant freedom from the consequences of that speech.

Re: Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

#168

Post by Georgelemental »

marcopolo3333 wrote: post #78
Dig1t wrote: post #55

I grew up in the US being told that freedom of speech was a virtue, something that our country did very well and I always thought that it was a shared value. It's very surprising to me to see that change in such a short span, or possibly it was not as popular or widespread as I thought it was growing up and I just never noticed. Is it the internet that has caused this uptick in the number of people who think free spe…

It still is a virtue and a right in the US. Freedom of speech is not about giving every idea and every person and equal platform to spread their ideas. It's not about forcing others to host/spread ideas they disagree with. I think the internet has given people a warped sense about what freedom of speech is. We have no less freedom of speech now than we did before social media/internet.

1. "Freedom of speech" ≠ "First Amendment". The First Amendment provides for a minimum level of free speech, a healthy society will go above and beyond the minimum. In fact many of the Founders were conflicted about the Bill of Rights, exactly because they were afraid it would be interpreted as a maximum and not a minimum.

2. Modern tech monopolies actively collude with government. Just a few days ago we learned that Facebook had been holding regular meetings with White House officials to coordinate censorship. In exchange, the government passes laws and regulations that help the tech giants kept their monopolies and crush their competitors, and doesn't pass antitrust bills that would hurt them. So the public/private distinction is kind of dead

Re: Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

#169

Post by civilized »

Makes sense, since intelligence correlates with openness to experience in the Big 5 model of personality. People who are open to new experiences will naturally prefer that people are allowed to express themselves so the experiences can occur.

I agree with other commenters that the study seems low-quality, but the result aligns with my priors, for whatever that's worth.

Re: Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

#170

Post by peoplefromibiza »

scythe wrote: post #148
cortesoft wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have not heard any group calling for free speech to be blocked. Who is calling for people to be arrested for what they say? Or to be blocked from being able to say it out loud? I think what you mean is that people are calling for internet platforms to kick out certain groups. This is in no way a call against freedom of speech. I am not sure why people suddenly believe that being for 'free speech' means that other p…

>I think what you mean is that people are calling for internet platforms to kick out certain groups. This is in no way a call against freedom of speech. Right, that would be freedom of the press. >Did people complain that newspapers wouldn't allow the KKK to print opinion essays whenever they wanted? Did they get upset when a convention hall wouldn't let certain groups rent out their space? Did people demand that typ…

> Did people demand that typewriters and printers be beyond the reach of the badly opinionated?

the owner of the shop selling those items could refuse to sell them for any reason.

> Did people demand the Post Office refuse to mail their newsletters? Did people demand that they should be denied phone service

those are public utilities.

but it happens all the time.

people in jail can't send mail through the post office or make a call whenever they want.

there are limitations in place already.

nobody is denying the right to use the internet to anybody.

internet connection is the equivalent of a phone line or the post office.

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