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Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

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Re: Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

#81

Post by californiadreem »

Dig1t wrote: post #55

I grew up in the US being told that freedom of speech was a virtue, something that our country did very well and I always thought that it was a shared value. It's very surprising to me to see that change in such a short span, or possibly it was not as popular or widespread as I thought it was growing up and I just never noticed. Is it the internet that has caused this uptick in the number of people who think free spe…

"And one day, too late, your principles, if you were ever sensible of them, all rush in upon you. The burden of self-deception has grown too heavy, and some minor incident, in my case my little boy, hardly more than a baby, saying ‘Jewish swine,’ collapses it all at once, and you see that everything, everything, has changed and changed completely under your nose. The world you live in—your nation, your people—is not the world you were born in at all. The forms are all there, all untouched, all reassuring, the houses, the shops, the jobs, the mealtimes, the visits, the concerts, the cinema, the holidays. But the spirit, which you never noticed because you made the lifelong mistake of identifying it with the forms, is changed. Now you live in a world of hate and fear, and the people who hate and fear do not even know it themselves; when everyone is transformed, no one is transformed. Now you live in a system which rules without responsibility even to God. The system itself could not have intended this in the beginning, but in order to sustain itself it was compelled to go all the way.

"You have gone almost all the way yourself. Life is a continuing process, a flow, not a succession of acts and events at all. It has flowed to a new level, carrying you with it, without any effort on your part. On this new level you live, you have been living more comfortably every day, with new morals, new principles. You have accepted things you would not have accepted five years ago, a year ago, things that your father, even in Germany, could not have imagined.

"Suddenly it all comes down, all at once. You see what you are, what you have done, or, more accurately, what you haven’t done (for that was all that was required of most of us: that we do nothing). You remember those early meetings of your department in the university when, if one had stood, others would have stood, perhaps, but no one stood. A small matter, a matter of hiring this man or that, and you hired this one rather than that. You remember everything now, and your heart breaks. Too late. You are compromised beyond repair."

-- They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45, Milton Mayer

Re: Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

#82

Post by naasking »

OrangeMonkey wrote: post #72
Dig1t wrote: post #55

I grew up in the US being told that freedom of speech was a virtue, something that our country did very well and I always thought that it was a shared value. It's very surprising to me to see that change in such a short span, or possibly it was not as popular or widespread as I thought it was growing up and I just never noticed. Is it the internet that has caused this uptick in the number of people who think free spe…

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - Attributed to Voltaire but actually from SG Tallentyre 1906. I think the desire to restrict other peoples speech is relatively new because the internet was relatively new. 50 years ago, you didn't see corporations able to effectively silence people as much as you do now. A more accurate quote for todays crowd may be "I disapprove o…

> 50 years ago, you didn't see corporations able to effectively silence people as much as you do now.

The government was always trying to silence people though, see McCarythism and Vietnam war protests.

Re: Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

#83

Post by TuringNYC »

Dig1t wrote: post #55

I grew up in the US being told that freedom of speech was a virtue, something that our country did very well and I always thought that it was a shared value. It's very surprising to me to see that change in such a short span, or possibly it was not as popular or widespread as I thought it was growing up and I just never noticed. Is it the internet that has caused this uptick in the number of people who think free spe…

>>> Is it the internet that has caused this uptick in the number of people who think free speech is a bad idea? Or is has it always been like that?

I grew up in the USA in this era also. Except half of society knew free speech only for the other half. Look at movies, leadership, or school curriculums and you notice how limited free speech actually was. The only ones with freedom of speech were narrow slivers of society who held the microphone and got to decide what constituted free speech.

The internet changed this, now everyone has a voice and can participate. Not everyone likes that.

Re: Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

#84

Post by hotpotamus »

Twistyfiasco wrote: post #61
illuminerdy wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you give some examples? Is it actually speech that's being restricted, or actions, or access to certain types of speech/content (e.g. age restrictions)?

Well, for awhile there was lots of talk about CRT. https://www.texastribune.org/2021/12/02/texas-critical-race-...

https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/lawmakers-push-to-b...

Don’t forget the 1619 Project.

Re: Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

#85

Post by bigbasedwolf »

Not surprising in the least. Anyone who has browsed 4chan instinctively senses that the pendulum swings from downright madness to sheer brilliance on a post-by-post basis, and this is something you can’t really find on other sites no matter how much you analyze the so called “signal to noise ratio.”

You can’t have an open and intellectually gratifying discussion if you know there are things you cannot say. So the topics, and their themes, are stifled from the get go. Be exposed to this environment long enough and you’ll self censor.

Re: Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

#86

Post by User23 »

P0l83q4p1Hw3Ul wrote: post #33

Is Freedom of Speech important for a democratic society to survive? Right wing extremists would say yes. In fact, this is why they believe we shouldn't allow low cognitive ability immigrants into the country or let them vote.

You said it in a tacky way, but the evidence does suggest that the average intelligence of a population is an important limiting factor in civilizational attainment. It’s necessary, but not sufficient.

Likewise, the likelihood of a startup succeeding is gated by the intelligence of its employees. Successful founders know this and hire accordingly.

I’ve yet to see a sound argument for why it’s ok for a company to discriminate on intelligence, but not for a country to. And of course many countries that are seen as having admirable immigration policies, such as Canada, do exactly that through various proxy measures.

Re: Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

#87

Post by ptsneves »

ThrowawayTestr wrote: post #35
sfpotter wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cognitive Ability Is Related to How Seriously You Take Studies Like This

Trust the science (unless it's science I disagree with)

You can trust science as in scientific method and practice and mistrust specific research or studies. All is well then.

Re: Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

#88

Post by TuringNYC »

OrangeMonkey wrote: post #72
Dig1t wrote: post #55

I grew up in the US being told that freedom of speech was a virtue, something that our country did very well and I always thought that it was a shared value. It's very surprising to me to see that change in such a short span, or possibly it was not as popular or widespread as I thought it was growing up and I just never noticed. Is it the internet that has caused this uptick in the number of people who think free spe…

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - Attributed to Voltaire but actually from SG Tallentyre 1906. I think the desire to restrict other peoples speech is relatively new because the internet was relatively new. 50 years ago, you didn't see corporations able to effectively silence people as much as you do now. A more accurate quote for todays crowd may be "I disapprove o…

>>> I think the desire to restrict other peoples speech is relatively new because the internet was relatively new. 50 years ago, you didn't see corporations able to effectively silence people as much as you do now.

50yrs ago, corporations and narrow slivers of the US who controlled their editorial boards (e.g., those in NYC or LA, to some extent DC) were the only ones with free speech. They didn't "silence" anyone, they just didn't give them a platform at all.

A stark example is police brutality and BLM movement -- this is not a new phenomenon. Except the media (including liberal media) chose never to cover it in a way where real change could happen. The extent of police brutality only entered the realm as a serious issue once the other half had sufficient freedom of speech to talk about it, gather around it, and bring it to light in a serious way.

This is the success of "the hashtag" and new media in Silicon Valley.

Re: Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

#89

Post by swampthing »

rhexs wrote: post #64
Dig1t wrote: post #55

I grew up in the US being told that freedom of speech was a virtue, something that our country did very well and I always thought that it was a shared value. It's very surprising to me to see that change in such a short span, or possibly it was not as popular or widespread as I thought it was growing up and I just never noticed. Is it the internet that has caused this uptick in the number of people who think free spe…

How many immigrants do you think grew up the same way? Hint: almost none, as the United States is the only country that enshrines true freedom of speech as an unalienable and fundamental right. This is probably considered "hate-speech" in this day and age, but immigration, shockingly, has cons as well.

How do you get from your first paragraph to your second? Many immigrants I know are, if anything, more zealous about freedom of speech than other Americans. It was one of the reasons why they went through the trouble of immigrating here.

Re: Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

#90

Post by naasking »

marcopolo3333 wrote: post #65
illuminerdy wrote: post #29

I can see how their conclusions play out in real life. One of the common threads I've noticed across many people when trying to explain why defending freedom of speech, and the free and open exchange of ideas in general, is that they're not just defending some "right-wing" person's rights, they're actually defending their own rights. Because the same tactics and rationales that are being used to suppress and silence…

A common thread I see is a lot is people conflating freedom of speech and having a platform (more specifically an online one). Forcing private entities to host speech they don't want to goes against what I define as freedom of speech. Everyone should be entitled to speak and have their own ideas, no individual or company should be force to spread them.

> Forcing private entities to host speech they don't want to goes against what I define as freedom of speech.

What if a private entity owns the town square?

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