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Mikhail Gorbachev has died

reuters.com

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Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#161

Post by karaterobot »

lapcat wrote: post #22

The United States didn't do enough to help Russia transition to democracy in the 1990s. There was no "Marshall Plan" after the Cold War like there was after World War II. This was a huge mistake, and we see the consequences now, with Russia having turned back toward totalitarianism and imperialism. Sadly, it seems that Gorbachev's efforts were mostly for naught. But it was courageous at the time to open up the Soviet…

Your comment makes it sounds like you believe the U.S. had the power to decide whether or not Russia would turn into a kleptocracy or not. Maybe I'm misinterpreting you, but if I'm not, I'm skeptical. Marshall plan notwithstanding, I would give credit to the people and government of Japan for their post-war success: it could easily have gone another direction, and the U.S. couldn't have stopped that from happening. Likewise, the people of Russia and their government are ultimately the ones with agency in their case. I don't think the U.S. should take on the burden of developing other countries; going down that road has been a bad idea more often than not.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#162

Post by daemoens »

zdragnar wrote: post #147
markdown wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US manages to meddle and create problems all over the world. A small part of the US footprint: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_r...

Ah yes, the world was such a utopia before the US.

That doesn't invalidate the point that the US has created incredible amounts of instability around the world.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#163

Post by pessimizer »

wcarron wrote: post #31
lapcat wrote: post #22

The United States didn't do enough to help Russia transition to democracy in the 1990s. There was no "Marshall Plan" after the Cold War like there was after World War II. This was a huge mistake, and we see the consequences now, with Russia having turned back toward totalitarianism and imperialism. Sadly, it seems that Gorbachev's efforts were mostly for naught. But it was courageous at the time to open up the Soviet…

You can lead a horse to water; but you can't make it drink. It wasn't the US' responsibility, it was the Russian peoples'.

You can't make it drink, but you can back a corrupt drunk who will shell the parliament and make sure that the Russian people know that America will never be on their side.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#164

Post by avgcorrection »

laserbrain wrote: post #37

»A Soviet man is waiting in line to purchase vodka from a liquor store, but due to restrictions imposed by Gorbachev, the line is very long. The man loses his composure and screams, ›I can’t take this waiting in line anymore, I HATE Gorbachev, I am going to the Kremlin right now, and I am going to kill him!‹ After 40 minutes the man returns and elbows his way back to his place in line. The crowd begin to ask if he ha…

No post body was provided.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#165

Post by ceejayoz »

hotpotamus wrote: post #78
duxup wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The locals in power have to want to do it too. As soon as enough don’t want it, it is over. I’m skeptical of the idea that you can impose Democracy.

Republicans have long said that the federal government is structurally incompetent and unable to effectively administer a large country. They made a convincing argument with their performance in Iraq and Afghanistan, and I doubt Russia would have been much different.

> Republicans have long said that the federal government is structurally incompetent and unable to effectively administer a large country.

To be fair, things probably work better when you don’t put people with that ideology in charge of said government.

It’s like picking a flat-Earther as an astronaut.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#166

Post by kenned3 »

hk__2 wrote: post #142
kenned3 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So like telling "jokes" at Russia's expense by a man of questionable ethics? what is the point of his joke, if not to mock another country? The OP posted a quote, and i posted one too?

The author of the joke doesn’t really matter here; the point is that it’s funny, period. I’m not sure how you can see a mockery of any country in a joke that would work with literally any important person in any country.

Comedy is subjective.

Try telling a sexually charged joke at your place of employment and see what happens.

World leaders freely slandering other countries like this is shameful, and not what you expect from a "world leader".

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#168

Post by mantas »

loeg wrote: post #132
trymas wrote: post #77

Quoted post unavailable.

Probably the most relevant sentence from that article: > The role of Mikhail Gorbachev in the January events remains disputed.

The last missing puzzle piece is pretty clear when looking at the full picture. Maybe now that he is gone, nobody will prevent from stating it officially.

It's pretty clear that he was aware and gave orders. There're testimonies that next time Alfa unit asked for written orders. Guess when Alfa unit was given unwritten orders and who could give them such orders? If they acted without orders, why no heads roll back then?

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#169

Post by bloak »

I thought the Mandela Effect (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_memory#Mandela_Effect) was a myth ... but now I experience it myself. I can so clearly remember reading Gorbachev's obituary a few years ago ... Did anyone else have a similar reaction?

(Perhaps I read an article about him on his 90th birthday and assumed it was an obituary?)

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