Meat made from recycled carbon dioxide

According to a dictionary. I think if we want to have a meaningful debate, we need to stick to certain established definitions and this includes the meaning of suffering.

How am I moving the goal post?

The topic I'm talking about is that our current global food system and a heavy diet of meat & dairy is considerably contributing towards our biosphere destruction and that this meat & dairy diet causes unnecessary cruelty towards other animals.

> It's just that all that stuff you say is mad.

What is mad about listening to scientists?

What is mad about finding ways to not destroy our biosphere?

What is mad about not killing and exploiting other sentient beings when we don't need to?

Whay is mad about not creating a horrific industry (slaughterhouses) that gives people PTSD?

> I linked to a bunch of those above [...] Vegan diest are not healthy.

Then why do health and nutrition experts disagree with you? Are you a doctor or health expert? Why does The Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics say ""Vegetarian and vegan diets are healthful, may prevent and treat chronic diseases, and are better for the environment"

Why does the UN and IPCC recommend a more plant-based diet?

You linked to the following sites and both of them said there are no real concerns with a vegan diet - just need to ensure you eat plant based foods that have the nutrients you need and supplement accordingly.

1) https://europepmc.org/article/PMC/2528709

"As noted above, a well-planned and carefully followed vegetarian diet can satisfy the nutrient requirements for infants and children, and thus cause no real concern."

2) https://www.vegansociety.com/resources/nutrition-and-health/...

"In choosing to use fortified foods or B12 supplements, vegans are taking their B12 from the same source as every other animal on the planet - micro-organisms - without causing suffering to any sentient being or causing environmental damage.

Vegans using adequate amounts of fortified foods or B12 supplements are much less likely to suffer from B12 deficiency than the typical meat eater. The Institute of Medicine, in setting the US recommended intakes for B12 makes this very clear."

B12 is not produced by animals. We don't have to kill animals to get B12.

So considering all of the above - it's a fact that we don't need meat to survive.

So please answer this question for me:

If we can avoid cruelty and violence towards other sentient beings - why don't we?

It's just an alternative that doesn't involve killing animals. For example, beyond burgers or impossible burgers, helps meat eaters who want to reduce their environmental footprint, transition to a more plant-based diet.

Or say you want to have spaghetti bolognese - instead of using minced animal meat you use an plant-based alternative which is better. And most people don't notice a difference these days.

Or say chicken nuggets - the plant based alternative - pretty amazing and in blind tests most people couldn't tell.

Food science is pretty amazing these days.

So what's wrong with that?

I personally don't need those products, as I don't have a craving for meat or dairy. But I have them some times.

But others do crave it, but they don't want to support factory farms - so these plant-based alternative products help.

And what is vegan propaganda?

All veganism does is promote a life style that's free from cruelty as much as possible.

What is wrong with reducing cruelty and environmental destruction?

For example, you want from being concern about killing, to being concerned about suffering, to being concerned about the environment, to arguing how healthy it is to eat a vegan diet, and now you're concerned about cruelty.

In truth, you don't care about any of those things. You're just promoting your ideology on the internet. Or rather, in an HN thread that nobody even reads besides you and me. Yawn.

And why is the alternative eating an animal alive? Have you ever tried to eat a cow alive? Was it enjoyable and tasty?

Why is the alternative not eating the animal at all?

Let's use some logic here.

Here are some facts:

Fact 1

So it's been already established that you don't need meat to survive. Your own articles you shared state that you can have a healthy life on plant-based foods alone. You just need to ensure to get the necessary nutrients, either by supplementing or eating a bigger variety of plant based foods.

Fact 2

The large scale animal agriculture industry is a big contributing factor to the destruction of our biosphere. This has been backed up by numerous credible organizations, like the UN, IPCC, Oxford University and many others.

Fact 3

Animals feel pain. Animals are not plants. And killing an animal will mean it suffers, which is an act of cruelty. Simple test... has an animal ever freely given up its life, so you can eat its flesh? When you start slicing an animal with a knife, what do you think it will do. Will it think "yes please kill me and ingest my flesh" or will it run away?

Fact 4

Killing animals all day every day is a horrible job and it's PTSD inducing. So continuing to buy meat products means you're sponsoring the continuation of slaughter houses, where many people have to work because they have no other options.

So given the above... why would you choose to eat meat when you could avoid the following by not eating meat and following a more plant-based diet:

A) Lower environmental footprint, which is required to avert a climate catastrophe

B) No sentient being has to suffer because you want some meat or cheese

C) People don't have to work in PTSD inducing slaughterhouses

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this.

I'm asking the same question over and over again - but you seem to skirt around it.

Again, are you saying that Oxford Uni, IPCC, UN and many other credible organizations are lying?

> transformed into a vile, noxious paste, the lowest-grade meat that is allowed for human consumption.

Have you ever watched how actual chicken nuggets are produced? Have you ever watched what goes on in the meat & dairy industry? You can find out more here: http://www.nationearth.com/

In the meat industry you have disgusting pink slime. See https://www.livescience.com/33786-pink-slime.html